Xenophobia Against Newly-elected Filipina-Korean Spreads Online

Jasmine Lee of the Saenuri Party has been the subject of online xenophobia

With the aftershocks of the general elections last week still rumbling on, no other candidate revealed the political fault-line in South Korea like the election of Jasmine Lee, a Filipina-Korean TV host and actress-cum-Saenuri proportional candidate, winning a seat in this election.

Ms. Jamine Lee, a well-known figure for the Filipino community and an advocate of multicultural families in South Korea is expected to help advance the welfare of some 50 000 OFWs (overseas foreign workers) as well as 1.2 million immigrants in South Korea. She met her Korean husband while she was still a college student. After marriage, she moved to Korea in 1995 and acquired the Korean citizenship in 1998. Her late husband died while rescuing their daughter in a flash flood in 2010. Since then she has been featured in a number of TV programs, including “Love in Asia” and a hit-movie Punch. Saenuri was hoping to tap into the immigrants’ votes with her nomination.

The issue of growing presence of migrant workers and foreign residents in South Korea is beginning to be felt in the political arena. While the need for the manpower in the time of falling fertility and aging demographic is well-recognized, many view the idea of multiculturalism with deep reservation if not with hostile suspicion, as the public reaction to the gruesome murder by a Chinese-Korean migrant worker last week showed. Multiculturalism is seen by many as a policy lobbied by the big business interests and forced upon the ordinary citizens as an attempt to lower the wage, artificially replenish the population and weaken the labor unions and trades organizations in the name of global competitiveness.

The following article is one of the hottest topics on portal site Daum, with thousands of comments flooding in.

From Daum:

Controversy over xenophobic attacks against newly-elected Jasmine Lee spreads on the Internet

Controversy over xenophobic attacks against newly-elected Filipina-Korean Jasmine Lee (35 years old international-marriage migrant) of the Saenuri Party, was widespread on Twitter.

A number of controversial comments such as “mail-order bride sales will go up”, “illegal migrant workers will run rampant” are widely circulating over the Tweeter.

One Tweeter user commented: “We will bankrupt ourselves by paying these mail-order brides” while another wrote: “With Jasmine Lee entering the National Assembly, I wonder how many more illegal migrants and mail-order brides will flood in, and reveal the true nature of blood-sucking multiculturalism.”

While none of these claims against Jasmine Lee are true, a number of un-substantiated claims regarding her campaign promises are being circulated, such as ‘illegal migrant workers free medical treatment’, ‘free return airfare for returnees’.

One Tweeter wrote: “it frightens me to read her campaign promises, really makes me wonder whether she is a Korean Assembly member or a chief of illegal migrant workers.” None of these claims have any confirmed sources and some are blatantly untrue.

In such an atmosphere, others including Professor Jo-guk raised their concerns that people should refrain themselves on Twitter from such racist words and criticism.

Professor Jo-guk urged refrain on racially-motivated comments and slanders, adding “her political stance and qualification could be subjected to scrutiny but one must not indulge in racism”.

Professor Jin Jung-gwon added “Those losers who are bad-mouthing Lee Oi-soo [one of Korea's most followed Tweeters] and spreading allegations about electoral frauds in Gangnam area must be done away with if one were to hope for the presidential election”.

Cartoonist Goh Pil-hun wrote “Hate the party [Saenuri] but how dare you to talk of Mrs Lee that way. Those who are spreading racist remarks are the ones who deserve discrimination”.

Actor Kim Jung-seok chimed in: “I know Jasmine Lee personally, and knowing how tragically her husband died, to hear things like “mail-order bride bitch” really boils my blood”.

Some argued that while xenophobic remarks and racially-motivated discrimination are unacceptable, the allegations on her academic qualification fraud must be raised, it is maintained.

One Tweeter user wrote “Racial discrimination against Jamine Lee must stop. On the other hand, it is equally wrong to lump together what is a valid scrutiny against her qualifications as racially motivated”, adding “to make it uncomfortable to even mention her name, isn’t that precisely un-egalitarian in itself?”

Comments from Daum:

comrade:

Saenuri trying to cover all issues is clearly a mistake. Despite their hardship, the wishes of the majority in lower-middle class who silently support the party despise the idea of multiculturalism must be respected.

신천지:

My pet dog Chihuahua can be elected like Jasmine if it runs as a Saenuri candidate~

Andrei:

Those South Asian beggars who are taking advantage of our blood and toil.

stars:

Our country is headed completely in a wrong direction, what a crazy show this is to have nominated her as a proportional candidate. And this is all the more shocking coming from a conservative party such as Saenuri, not even from a progressive side. This country has no left or right but only those who abuse the average citizens, now we know that for sure. A vain-glory person such as Jasmine Lee and Saenuri are putting on a helluva show here. Western European countries or Scandinavian countries would not think of doing this. An Assembly member may not have to be smart but she would certainly need to be patriotic. How could we expect this from a first-generation migrant?

ㅋㅋㅋ:

Sarkozy’s approval rate went up when he announced that he will reduce the number of illegal aliens.

ㅡㅡV:

It’s not xenophobia per se but the crazy campaign promises that irks us~~Free medical care for illegal aliens~ To support Saenuri that nominates a crazy bitch, that’s what is causing this sense of loathing.

접수대장:

Why are we supporting foreign workers with our tax?? That foreign migrant bitch better shut her hole.

람보르기니:

Jasmine Lee, she is a leading advocate for the multicultural policy. She is scary. It is true that she wants to make South Korea a better place for foreigners to live. Her nationality may be Korean but her thoughts are still Pinoy.

k1345345:

Free medical care for illegal aliens and now free airfare support for returning home, are you out of your mind? We are paying our tax to send you for free? Get those crazies out back to where they come from.

windy:

I am against multiculturalism. Look what happened to Spain once they accepted Muslim migrants. Look at Mexico after NAFTA….Against multiculturalism… No to voluntary naturalization… To increase fertility rate, post-natal care and maternal services should be improved, not through multicultural policy.

쥐갈무리:

Saenuri cares so much about North Korean human rights but they don’t care about our rights. Only a few days ago an innocent girl was brutally murder by a Choson-jok but rather than addressing the fear and insecurity over the illegal migrants crimes they are trying to encourage multiculturalism and good treatment for illegal aliens and in doing so they elected Jasmine Lee. We have supported you to work for us, NOT to support foreign workers and foreigners.

에어울프:

There must be a lot of idiots who voted for Saenuri (Jasmine) and then came here to bad-mouth here, not knowing it was their votes that made her the Assembly member. They are only spitting in their own faces??

길위에서:

In the whole wide world can someone please bring me a case as idiotic as this!!!!!! She is barely a wet-nurse type… even a Laundromat owner is too much for her… how dare her, oh it drives me so mad. Our phDs are running Laundromats in America… AHHHH!!!

versatile:

Multicultural policy must be abolished! Let’s petition.

그림자인형:

I thought it was the conservatives who hate foreigners, ke ke Are we sure that the foreigner-party is a right-wing party?

ehd9tks:

It was a crazy idea for Saenuri to nomindate Jasmine Lee. It was a really really wrong idea. Saenuri was completely off on this one. It is as bad as the Kim Dae-jung administration creating a ministry for women’s equality.

EZK:

It is problematic for Saenuri to have nominated a foreigner. What next, a gay Assembly member…?

하늘사람:

Korea woman slaughtered by a foreign worker, and some Southeast Asian bitch somehow stumbles into the National Assembly.. ♥.. multiculturalism

새벽님:

Illegal alien vs Jeolla-province person, who’s got a worse personality?

레인민트:

I would understand if we had elected Taru (a Finnish TV personality), since that will be an opportunity for us to learn the advanced country’s culture, but from the Philippines, their political scene is a mess. A woman from that kind of trash country becoming an Assembly member, I very much doubt what she will accomplish. She must have learned nothing but trash politics from her native country.

산다라:

Ms. Park Geun-hye, your father Park Chung-hee was famous for grinding down the Chinese migrants.. so what are you doing? She lied on air, that is not a trivial matter.. What xenophobia? How could we afford spend our tax money on a 35-year old Pinoy woman and her office, her five assistants and their livelihoods? This is not xenophobia, this is too good a treatment for foreigners..

Update: This koreaBANG article made the headlines in The Philippines here and here.

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  • Matt

    Wow, seriously, fuck these hypocritical xenophobes.

    They decry multiculturalism (newsflash: “multiculturalism” is not synonymous with “immigrant welfare”), and yet simultaneously all of them want to either study abroad or have their children study abroad—South Korea is by FAR the largest per-capita source of international students in the US—and yet they freak out about a few Filipina maids who dare to work jobs that Koreans themselves don’t want for wages that Koreans themselves wouldn’t be willing to work for.

    But that doesn’t anger me. What angers me is that so many clueless Southeast Asian morons actually look up to and IDOLIZE South Korea and Koreans. If only these idiots knew what Koreans thought of them in return. -_-

    • Bruce

      Hey, be careful now. There are lots of Koreans (both native and otherwise) who detest this kind of racism. But the problem in Korea is similar to the problem in the US — the most extremist idiots always scream the loudest, and they usually only make up about 10% of any given population. everyone else is open to compromises and living peacefully together.

      My solution? Take the extremist 10% of the world population that is bitter, angry and violent, and transport them to an outpost-city in Antarctica and let them be racist, extreme and violent to themselves so that the rest of the 90% of the world can have peaceful, normal, and enjoyable lives. It’s always the 10% that F*&^s everything up. SHEESH!!!!!

      • SafferinAsia

        Wow, Bruce, great idea, let me know if I can help you get this going.

      • M@rc

        I’m on board with this.

        And they are so blind and ignorant, pretty sad really.

      • Bruce Tutty

        No Thank You, as a Kiwi we don’t want all your rubbish dumped as usual on someone else land, especially not near us.

        Try taking responsibility for your own extremists, instead of making them someone else’s problem, because you can’t deal with them.

        • Bruce

          Thanks buddy – you seem like a prime example of one of the extremists who belong on the ice pack.

          Cheers.

        • mr. wiener

          Cheer up Bruce. I’m an Ozzie. they tried the criminal dregs and rasist scum dumping idea with us 200 years ago. We didn’t work out too bad did we..?

        • James

          Why is everyone called Bruce?

          • liker

            that comment! hahahaha where’s the thumbs up button? lol

    • Wang this!

      I agree with Bruce. It’s dangerous to generalize a whole nation/ethnicity on the post of a very few… Every country has these kinds of idiots. Including North American and European Nations.

      • Bruce

        Yup. I think it is really necessary for Korea and America in particular to realize that the assholes among us are the minority that mess things up for everybody. Do we have issues to work through? Sure, but smart, normal Americans and Koreans work through the issues in civil ways for the most part. It’s the idiot 10-20% in EACH COUNTRY that always drag the 80-90% back into the dark ages.

        F**K those idiots. I mean, really, when are the 80% going to start speaking against the idiots?! There really are many more sensible, good people than idiots in both countries . But as I said: it’s the f**king idiots of the world that have the biggest mouths, and say that most f**cked up things… things that get our whole world into sh*t-holes for decades at a time.

        Just sick of it. Really. I”m just f**kin sick of it these days. And this article just set me off. Point being – it’s a reality in every country. Not just Korea.

        • Bruce Tutty

          I think you are being a bit of an asshole here….pack your cold weather gear, you’re being sent to Antarctica.

          • Bruce

            I stand by what I said. It’s the extremists (like you, i suppose, because why else would you be offended?) who have taken history hostage, time and time again, while the 90% are left to clean up the mess. I can’t imagine how anyone who is not an extremist can disagree with that — or even get mad at the idea.

    • SylvianDark

      Post proof that they do jobs Koreans won’t do.

  • Human_Race

    I can see Korea headed the same direction as USA with this immigration problem. I’m guessing it’s an Asian thing to be afraid of opening themselves to other cultures. I believe after the candidate is qualified and understands the country’s current situation he/she can do the job.

    • A gawd-dang Mongolian

      I forget where, but It was written that Koreans are just like this.

      With Japanese, just look like you are from the West, and they open up to you.

      Chinese, if you speak Chinese, they don’t care what you look like.

      Korean, they’ll be damned if they closely associate themselves with ANYTHING non-Korean.

  • Seoul less

    Koreans usually think low of south east asians. mostly for economic reasons. a pity koreans have that kind of mentality. but then again, that’s how low humans can get sometimes

    • Wang this!

      So do Japanese. Chinese, Americans, Americans, Canadians, East Indians, British… the list goes on… although it sucks, the point I am making is its the same all over the world.

      Sad…

      • Brett Sanbon

        I think you forgot to mention Americans.

        • Wang this!

          Oh YES! my apologies… Americans too…

          LOL

          That was cut and paste error. I wasn’t emphasizing that Americans are worse or anything a long those lines, if anyone read my post as such.

          • Brett Sanbon

            Lol didnt think so… I just couldnt keep reading such serious comments without being an ass for a second. Alexis can attest to that!

    • SafferinAsia

      I find it so sad that there are some Koreans that have such a low opinion of SE Asians, especially Filipinos. If you cast your mind back to the Korean War, you will remember that Filipinos were the first to rush to the aid of SK. Don’t forget where you come from Korea, instead of bashing the Philippines at every opportunity, be thankful that they are your friends and welcome you to their country with open arms unlike you do.

      I have noticed that hoards of Koreans go to the Philippines to study English. Why, because they speak good English and it is cheap to study there. Another reason you should stop being so negative towards them.

      Another point I would like to raise, go to Incheon Airport on any Friday night (or any night for that matter) and see how many Koreans are heading south to Manila to play golf. Philippines welcomes you with open arms, why not do the same and stop this incredible racism.

      • sfgiants

        Of course Phillippines welcome Koreans with open arms, afterall Koreans contribute 1 billion dollars yearly to their local economy which is a SIGNIFICANT economic stimilus for them. Koreans are also setting up businesses there and giving the locals jobs. So of course, I would welcome anyone to my town if they’re willing to spend lots of money which the Koreans are. Koreans are being productive foreigners in Phillipines by spending money and helping to modernize Phillipines. On the other hand, can you say the same for Filipinos in Korea in terms of productivity? Not just Filipinos, but also SEAs. Korean government spends lots of money for multicultural families, such as providing free childcare, healthcare, and education all of which are not available for Korean families but only for multicultural families. WTF?

        Multicuturalism does not work! Look at US, UK, and Europe. Multiculturalism will eventually drain Korea’s economy, it will increase levels of unemployment (as if there aren’t enough young Koreans who can’t find jobs after college), and reduce earnings for Koreans. I can see why Koreans are xenophobic in regards to multiculturalism. I would welcome with open arms for educated and productive foreigners coming to Korea and contributing. But multicutural families from SEA come to Korea expect/receive free handouts from the government and whatever money they make, that money is sent to their country of origin. These type of multicultural familes which make up significant population of foreigners create a gloomy outlook for Korea’s future. As I said earlier, I’m ALL for educated foreigners coming to Korea and being productive, but that’s not the case with the current crop of multicutural families and it doesn’t look like it will happen unless Korean government put a restriction on immigration and ban mail order bride.

        • mr. wiener

          Who else is going to come to Korea and do all the shite jobs Koreans think they are too good to do?…..Oh yeah hang on, you’ve got the Chinese for that.

  • 소지섭

    Wow, cool, she’s a politician? She acted in Secret Reunion (의형제). She played a mail ordered bride who ran away from her husband.

  • ric

    I don’t know much about how the political system in korea works. however this was differently a political move to grab the foreign vote. which i have to ask: how important is the foreign work anyway…i thought the number of foreigners/ naturalized foreigners was really small like < 1%. so i doubt any real change in policy towards foreigners will change. now with xenophobia i completely understand those koreans. allowing foreigners it causes trouble like crime and it is costly. what's the point is it really good for the citizens and is it fair.

    • nalnal

      I agree 100%. people are so quick to bash the Korean behaviour.. but its their country. they are the rightful citizens. its only natural that having a foreigner within their government would make them think that that person is not after THEIR!! best interest. and I mean, they are not lying when they say her focus will be on improving the lives of migrant workers, therefore she will be using korean’s money to improve the lives of people who don’t have a right/ shouldn’t be there in the first place… whether or not they scrub toilets and do little jobs most koreans would refuse.

  • Jack

    Multiculturalism is seen by many as a policy lobbied by the big business interests and forced upon the ordinary citizens as an attempt to lower the wage, artificially replenish the population and weaken the labor unions and trades organizations in the name of global competitiveness.

    This is the truth….Korea is going to be destroyed slowly eaten up by immigrants like they did to Europe and America…Her win is not by chance but by design.

    • SafferinAsia

      Jack, Korea cannot survive without migrant labourers, fact! How is Korea being destroyed? Europe and America are not being destroyed either. You cannot live on an ‘island’ anymore, the whole world is shrinking and embracing multiculturalism. Do you want Korea to stay in the 17th Century or take its rightful place in the world economy?

      Don’t be so narrow-minded, 99% of educated and enlightened Koreans eagerly embrace multiculturalism, get over yourself. Korea is not some sort of super race and superior to others. Korea is part of the world and we all have our strengths and weakness, let’s all pull together and build a better world instead of having this bigoted attitude.

  • http://onethenatureofthings.net/forum Typhoon

    Another dumb country that thinks that nationality is race.

    • Wnag this!

      Tell me genius, what country does not?

      • A gawd-dang Mongolian

        None, but most other countries are more subtle about what they think is ‘ethnically appropriate’

        These guys are about as subtle as whipping out their wing wongs and slapping you in the face.

        • Wang this!

          Disagree completely! you need to read comments on CNN more often and other news sites when ethnicity come into play.

          These kinds of moron’s are all the same shit just different piles…

  • dshx

    Korean here:

    Korea is a nation that is relatively new to people who are non-Korean. Not to mention as clearly shown in the comments, South Korean’s judge different types of Koreans be it American, Chinese etc.

    Korea is one of the last extremely homogeneous nations of the world.
    As far as we are concerned, Yes Korean nationality indicates Korean race.
    There are very few cases that prove otherwise.

    As a Korean, my perspective is that it is difficult to grasp that immigrants who aren’t Korean will not change the Korean landscape. Korea is home for Koreans, and if people of other ethnicities immigrate, will we lose our home?

    This is obviously an issue found around the world that many nations are currently struggling with. Italy with North African immigrants, England with Islamic immigrants, America with Latino immigrants, Tibet and areas of China with ethnic Chinese immigrants, and the Palestinian conflict.

    The question is: Do ethnicities have the right to claim ownership of land?

    For example, Zionists claim that Israel is land for the Jews and the Jews only. After the United Nations granted the land of Israel to the Jewish refugees of WW2, many Palestinians had to leave their homes. Who did the land belong to? Can it be both?

    Another point I would like to make is the Western notion of “Home is where you make it”. I only know that I can speak for East Asians in the aspect that we all have a place we are from. Although many modern Koreans will say “I’m from Seoul” upon further questioning they may also say “I’m from Busan”. That means that they may have grown or lived in Seoul, but they’re family is from Busan.

    This acknowledgment of a root home is extremely common in Asia. It may be something alien to many Westerners who have complex histories and have no choice but to make “home” wherever they do make it.

    Also, in Asia, nationality has very much to do with blood. A Korean born overseas can easily obtain Korean citizenship because his parent’s were Korean. Asian nations recognize blood over land. The notion of identity from where you were born is not one recognized in Asia.

    I want to make clear that Koreans are seeing this issue with a different viewpoint and while still labelled xenophobia, it is a different type of xenophobia. One that is not of hatred, but of cultural views.

    Interesting topic. Thanks

  • Brett Sanbon

    I understand all of the netizens’ concerns. I however, think that the issues they bring up like “mail-order” brides are ridiculous.

    Main point being if Koreans would stop aborting female fetuses, there might be enough women for the men. As long as the male/female birthrate ratio remains skewed there will be plenty of Korean men happy to marry women from outside national boarders.

    Question: Does anyone here think that the netizens comments would be different if the woman were not east Asian but caucasion? If so, how?

    • ELO

      I don’t know where you get your stats, but I suggest you come out of the early 1990′s. Korea’s sex ratio at birth is now almost normal. The practice of sex abortion has died down to the point Koreans now prefer girls.

      • Brett Sanbon

        If I’m misinformed than so be it. Last book I read said in 2005 it was over 107 boys to every 100 girls. Still statistically in favor of aborting girls. Then again, I fucking despised that author so maybe he was wrong too.

  • DR Jones

    Wow … Korea may be a first world country technology wise but it comes across as extremely backward on this issue. Shame on Korea.

  • paulie walnuts

    America, by definition, is a nation of immigrants. It has a history based on a constant influx of new groups. Thus its not only hypocritical of “Americans” to claim that they are of “American blood”, but a country with a history of multiculturalism, by definition, precludes any possibility of a single blood-based lineage.

    Koreans are a completely different case. Korea is one of the few countries that exists today with a homogenous population that has continuously inhabited the same area for centuries. You can define “American” in a myriad of ways; you cannot with Korea. Koreans derive their identity through their bloodline, pure and simple.

    Imagine if the geographical boundary that makes up Korea today was just what it meant to be “Korean”. Imagine taking each individual currently living in Korea today and magically transporting them to Island K. Now imagine bringing in 75 million random individuals from America and placing them in Korea. Let’s call them “New Koreans”. Which group of people would you consider to be “Korean”? Obviously the inhabitants of Island K.

    Now imagine if all the inhabitants of Island K somehow magically lost their ability to speak Korean, but these new Koreans somehow acquired the ability to speak the Korean language. Now which group would be considered Korean? Still the inhabitants of Island K.

    Now imagine if every single aspect of Korean culture was lost by the inhabitants of Island K, but learned by the new Koreans. Which group would be considered Korean? The inhabitants of Island K.

    This thought experiment was designed to tease out the essential quality of what makes Koreans Korean – their bloodline.

    When people discuss the purity of the Korean people, they don’t refer to the Korean language, or Korean culture, rather it is the individuals who share blood ties to each other, separate and distinct from all other people.

    According to the 2010 US Census, America is 72% “white”. The actual percentage is probably less than 70%; America is a land of mutts. Compare this to Korea. The CIA world factbook simply states Korea’s population as being homogeneous. There are only a couple of countries listed with homogeneous populations, North and South Korea being two of them. Even Japan is listed at only 98% homogenous. There is plenty of scientific backing for the purity of Korean people. Korea is literally one of the last populations on Earth that possesses this unique genetic purity. The erosion of this special quality is deeply disheartening.

    This is also the reason why foreigners will never – and should never – be considered Korean – they do not possess Korean blood, plain and simple.

    racial discord exists if and only if there are significant minority populations within a larger majority population. This is because tribalism is an inherent part of human nature. The logical conclusion, therefore is that multiculturalism necessarily results in racial discord. This has been true all throughout history, whether it’s Nazi Germany, failed race relations in America, Muslim unrest in France, etc. Take for instance, the U.S. soldiers who raped and killed Korean girls. Imagine if they had never been in Korea in the first place. How would they have been able to rape and murder those girls? Food for thought: what if there was a significant American population in South Korea at the time? Think they would’ve been the target of racial strife? Yep. Imagine if America never brought black slaves to America. Would the 92′ race riots in America ever have taken place? Probably not.

    There is a difference between the preservation of ones race and the demeaning or active extermination of other groups. Demeaning or exterminating members of a different tribe can only take place if multiple tribes exist in proximity.

    How does this apply to South Korea? Well, if foreigners continue to come to Korea, Korea will inevitably – and technically, it already has – experience racial discord. This is indisputable. Such discord would be far more devastating to a homogeneous population like Korea’s than America’s – a land of immigrants and mutts.

    My great grandfather registered at his local gu office to create his family register over 50 years ago. I can trace my maternal great grandfather as well. Being able to trace your roots through the family register system is a good start. White American Joe Schmoe who comes to Korea to teach English, marries a Korean woman, and naturalizes can’t trace his lineage to Korea like I can. He and his kids will not be considered Korean, no ifs ands or buts. There is no single demarcation line but there are several practical ways to delineate one’s Korean heritage and this is enough for the majority of Koreans, myself included.

    Multiculturalism could potentially cause severe instability in Korean society. Historically speaking, foreigners have not had the best intentions when dealing with the Korean people. Exploitation, colonialism, etc. has been common to both Asian (http://en.wikipedia…._Japanese_rule) and Western (http://en.wikipedia….erman_incident) dealings. This alone should be reason enough to be wary of multiculturalism.

    I think the best argument you can make for keeping Korea homogenous is that one’s tribe is essentially the basis of any affinity beyond the familial unit. This is how I, someone born in America, still possess a kinship to Korean people separated by thousands of miles. Without this critical tie, much of the “glue” that holds society together breaks down and results in racial tension and inequality, take America for example. Countries with significant minority populations inevitably experience racial discord. This is true worldwide, even in countries with a history of multiculturalism e.g. America. I argue that it would be far worse for a country with such a homogenous population like Korea’s.

    I’m not against miscegenation per se; as someone who is 100% Korean by blood, I feel obligated to the preservation of my kin. This means that while I don’t have anything against non-Koreans of any race marrying other non-Koreans of any race, Koreans who marry non-Koreans – and particularly the ones who remain in Korea – imo are contributing to the dilution of the Korean bloodline. Hypothetically, if every Korean who married a non-Korean left Korea I would have absolutely no problem – their offspring wouldn’t further dilute the gene pool.

    Korea didn’t even exist 67 years ago. My grandparents lived under Japanese occupation. If such rapid changes can occur in that short of a time frame, then it surely can happen again. At any rate, I wasn’t making the argument that Korea will be occupied – although you could argue that the presence of a bunch of foreign military bases is the same thing – anytime soon. I used the Japanese occupation as an example of why Koreans should not be so quick to embrace foreigners. Foreign English – or French, for that matter – teachers are a case in point.
    There are 52,440 U.S. troops in Germany, roughly double the number of U.S. troops in South Korea. Do U.S. soldiers in Germany run over schoolgirls, dump toxic chemicals into the water, massacre civilians, and have a history of rape, murder, and mutilation? No. They don’t. I can tell you why U.S. troops in Korea behave the way they do – go to Itaewon and you can get a taste – a lot of it has to do with their attitudes towards Koreans (Asians generally, which includes Koreans by extension). A lot of these U.S. troops despise Koreans and don’t respect them in the same way they do Germans. Many U.S. troops are known racists – they have committed hate crimes against even their own kind, for God’s sake – and attitudes such as these fester like a gangrenous wound. But hey, even many American civilians are racist so why should this be a surprise? They think being stationed in Korea is a green light for inebriated depravity where anything goes.

    • Brett Sanbon

      Ill get back later with a better-thought response but you act like one of Korea’s greatest problems is the dilution of its bloodline and that just factually isnt the case. In your (and many other Korean people’s) opinion it is.

      Read my earlier post. Many Korean men have no choice but to marry abroad or live in celebacy because the male-female birth ratio favors male kin by far. Maybe you are surrounded by many Korean American women back home and have numbers on your side, but other people who want to have a family consider their own bloodline to be more important than Korea’s pure race.

      I want to ask you. Would you chose celebacy over pure-blood?

      • paulie walnuts

        Globalization might be inevitable; the extent to which Korea is affected by it is up to Koreans to decide.

        It is one of the biggest issues in Korea today and will become even more salient as the population of foreigners in Korea increases. This is why it’s so dangerous. It’s deceptive because the promotion of miscegenation aka multiculturalism actually destroys the fundamental quality of being Korean, gene by gene.

        Tribal theory states that different tribes define themselves in different ways. For a mutt tribe like America, what you just said is obviously true; it doesn’t matter what tribe you’re from, since America is a land of immigrants and mutts. As a person born in America, I am allowed to identify with the American tribe. It makes no difference to me if an American is a tribal alphabet soup or purebred.

        Certain tribes, however, define themselves in terms of their bloodline. Koreans, in particular, define Korean-ness in terms of having a pure bloodline, so when non-Koreans “identify” themselves as Korean, it’s not only inherently contradictory, but an insult to Koreans like myself.

        The survival of the Korean people and ethos hinges upon the survival of a pure Korean bloodline. If Korea wants to remain a distinct, pure people there is virtually no room for multiculturalism. Racial diversity has its benefits and disadvantages. Koreans should look at sad state of American race relations and see where they’re headed, should trends continue.

        I see one possible scenario where it might be commendable to promote multiculturalism: if the morals and intentions of every foreigner, i.e. someone not of Korean blood, were pure AND naturalization required absolute assimilation into Korean society – this is also part of the reason why I despise some gyopos for their entitlement. Look at how foreigners behave in Korea; foreigners don’t put the interests of Korean people first, nor do I expect them to. Foreigners try to impose their values on Korean society http://thegrandnarrative.com , treat Koreans with contempt (http://english.hani….al/516604.html), and take advantage of Korea’s “naivete” http://populargusts….er-scandal.html It’s perturbing how haphazardly welcoming of foreigners some Koreans can be. If you promote immigration, you are, by extension, promoting interracial marriage —> the diluting of the Korean bloodline.

        If I suddenly decided to identify myself as “Finnish”, a Finnish person would be more than justified in thinking I am not a member of his tribe and moreover, that perhaps I’m not the most mentally balanced individual in the world.

        The idea that a tribe would want to somehow preserve its character is obviously disturbing to you. I argue that it shouldn’t. If a tribe starts using purity as an excuse to exterminate other tribes – which Korea never has, simply in virtue of the fact that its population is homogenous -, then I’d say that’s not a very good idea. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think Korea should narrow the definition of what it means to be Korean, restrict immigration, etc. because it should.

        Tribal theory states that different tribes define themselves in different ways. For Koreans, it is blood-based. When the Korean bloodline disappears, Koreans themselves will have ceased to exist. The nation-state paradigm is a Western invention and does not apply to East Asian relations; Korea is a tribe defined in terms of race, not its national borders. This is why I am considered Korean by Koreans even though I was born thousands of miles away and grew up in a predominantly white country. The extinction of the Korean race is inevitable as long as Koreans continue to accept foreigners. This is why it should be vary careful in how it admits foreigners. Multiculturalism does not work – America proves this – and the consequences will unmistakably be severe. In reality, Korea has already experienced racial tension. Tribal theory predicts that if Korea continues to admit foreigners, tribal tensions will increase, but by then it will be too late. Korea will experience the same tribal conflicts and discord that America has, currently is, and will experience and it will be devastating to the harmony of Korea.

        I am not Kenyan, therefore I am not qualified to speak on matters related to Kenyan identity. Likewise, are you Korean? If you aren’t, then you aren’t qualified to speak on Korean identity. There are few things more deplorable than non-Koreans speaking on Korean-related issues, if I may be honest.

        • Brett Sanbon

          ” The idea that a tribe would want to somehow preserve its character is obviously disturbing to you.” did you mean to write this all to me. I just merely asked “would you choose celebacy over you pre bloodline.”

          Again, I would love to talk more about this in depth when I can get to a computer. If you did mean to respond to me please answer my sincere question.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            I would, in fact. To argue otherwise would risk real inconsistency and be far too damning.

            However, it is not my wish to see these poor SEA brides have to marry Korean men, much like the plight of Russian mail order brides marrying Americans for green cards. Both scenarios are disgusting and wretched morally.

            Accountability rests partially with Koreans themselves. White men have no problem marrying Korean women. The myth of “not enough Korean women” is thus proven wrong.

            It is the duty of Koreans to incentivize marriage to Korean men so that Korean women who would be otherwise marrying foreigners would, at least, have no financial incentive to marry a foreign man. This would have the dual effect of reducing the number of Korean men to foreign women.

            Leave it to a bunch of nescient, deadbeat politicians to determine the fate of the Korean race. The results wont be pretty, I assure you.

          • Brett Sanbon

            .. … I have 4 (four) Korean male friends (born, raised, and still living in Korea) with caucasian wives. They and their families are happy, proud, and enjoying the multicultural aspects of an international marriage. Not sure why Asian guys think only women marry ourside of your race.

            Just because some are scared of the idea doesnt mean all are. Ive noticed that all 4 Korean male friends have remarkable personalities and not all of them are lookers (if you know what I mean). Confidence will always trample cowardess when viewed side-by-side.

            I still understand why it is you say Korean blood makes a person Korean. But to those foreigners and their Korean families, they are Korean too. Maybe not by law or tradition, or even your opinion, but when has law or tradition stopped people from thinking and believing? I guarantee my in-laws view me as more of a Korean than they would you, and Im 6 foot 4 and white. But regardless of what you or anyone else thinks, they accept me. In my eyes, that is more important than naturalization.

            When you begin to limit foreigners to “Itaewon’s finest” you are doing a great disservice to those that truly do care enough to learn the language, culture, history…etc

            It is unreasonable for you to impose your pure blood views on all Koreans because like it or not, although you and Koreans share a “bond separated by thousands of miles” most dont see you as truly Korean either. The only way an ABK gets noticed as Korean is if they do something great, or surprisingly enough terrible.

            Ahhhh. this phone is too difficult to type and edit on!! I will be back.

        • Vince

          Have you quite finished writing your little fascist mini-manifesto? Seriously, give me a fucking break.

          • http://theunlikelyexpat.blogspot.com/ durham stevens

            Paulie are you sure you don’t work for some Nazi eugenics doctors? Because that is who you sound like. “Genetic purity” is an inherently and appallingly racist and repulsive idea. Not to mention being dangerous, and outdated.

            Has anyone ever told you that “race” only exists as a social construct – and has no scientific meaning? At least if you live in a world where fake Nazi science is no longer respected by anyone with a brain. Dude, open a social science textbook sometime, it might do you good….

            Why do so many Western people who want to apologize for and justify Korea’s shamefully backwards attitudes towards race always come across sounding like some warped racist social reject? Oh wait, maybe it’s because they are…

          • Vince

            Spot on Durham, though I don’t think it’s a problem that “Koreans” have in general. It exists as a dirty streak of Korean political thought that deserves to be exposed, but it’s by no means something that all Koreans believe.

        • sayitlikeitis

          Vince, the abundance of ad hominem arguments in your rebuttal is testament to the fragility of the views you hold as sacrosanct. Frequently people who are unable to mount a reasoned defense of their views resort to insults. Or rather, behavior such as yours is a telltale sign that somebody can’t really back up their views. You would not recognize truth if it hit you in the face; which is exactly what has happened here. You yourself say that you refuse to believe that more than one person can hold the views that Paulie and I do, however the translated comments of korean netizens paints a decidely different picture. To me, this demonstrates a willingness on your behalf to complete ignore reality and instead to only insulate yourself within your own ideological cocoon. Fine by me, but don’t try to export your poison to korea as well.

          I’m assuming you’re probably an american/western leftist, that being said I find it hilarious that you are defending multiculturalism which is a policy erected by korea’s corrupt elite class against the wishes of the lower and middle classes. I thought people of your political stripe were supposed to defend the masses, not support the will of the elites?

          “And what about the big, unspoken paradox of the “cultural imperialism” thesis, that all these criticisms are wrong because they are imperialistic?”
          -Are these criticisms not imperialistic? You are a product of the west, as is your thinking. Really, you are no better than the spanish conquistadors of the past who sincerely believed that they were civilizing the savages by destroying the native culture and imposing their own beliefs on to them. Of course, in this case, you subconsciously view yourself as the “conquistador” and the korean people as the “savages” who need to be civilized and brought into line.

          “And what, according to you, is the great saviour of Korean nationalism? Why, none other than the West’s racial discourse, which you have now internalized and claimed as Korean! You must be a good colonial subject if there ever was one…”
          -How myopic you are. You sincerely believe that the west has a monopoly on racial discourse. You honestly think that is all that there is. It appears to me that you are insinuating that all the non-western people of the world were unable to see race before the advent of the west. I can assure you that you are wrong, very very very wrong. Billions upon billions of non-westerners, and thousands upon thousands of non western history begs to differ.

          “Ahh yes, the classic argument of the crackpot: there’s a huge conspiracy so all the experts are wrong. Have you ever been to a Western university (seeing as you feel qualified to make this comment)? It sounds like you haven’t even been out of your basement for some time.”
          -Yawn, more ad hominem. Also you commited another logical fallacy with a fallacious appeal to authority. I’m positive that if you grew up in another time in another place (say for example the USSR) then you also would have similarly accused political dissidents of being crackpots because they doubted the ‘wisdom’ of all the ‘experts’ of the late USSR. You know in the not so distant past, most of the people considered ‘experts’ also used to believe that the earth was flat… You call me a crackpot because I disagree with you. What ever happened to tolerance of different opinions? It is evident you value diversity of skin color so much, yet at the same time you are essentially saying race doesn’t matter. Well, if race/ethnicity/etc. really doesn’t matter then all we are left with is ideas, and thus far you have demonstrated that you do not value diversity of thought, only diversity of skincolor, this shows how shallow you really are. And, FYI I currently go to a western university and I currently reside in a western country; and no, I don’t live here while advocating mass immigration/multiculturalism to this country and simultaneously trying to denigrate the majority population and deconstruct their identity. In short, I try my best to be a humble and grateful guest. Could you say the same?

          “This is pretty easy to verify: so, err, no they aren’t. How about actually reading a book about Korean nationalism rather than assuming that whatever rubbish comes out of your mouth is an adequate reflection of what all Koreans think?”
          -I’d say it probably is an adequate reflection of what *most koreans think. You aren’t Korean, thus Koreaness is unimportant to you. To put forth a rhetorical question, “Why should you truly care what Koreaness is? it doesn’t affect you after all.” I think its also funny that you think a singular book about korean nationalism is the end all and be all about korean nationalism. Its also risible that you think a book (any book for that matter) would be written completely dispassionately and without bias. So in answer to your question, I would have to say: yes, I do believe that whatever rubbish comes out of my mouth, or any of the other 70-80 million koreans in the world constitutes an extremely legitimate opinion of what Korean nationalism truly is. What’s worse (for you) is that a majority of koreans would agree with me. That is what makes you so mad, is that we won’t think the way you want us to. And because we don’t, you try to shame us into thinking so. Sorry dude, its not gonna work. Besides, whatever happened to live and let live? Surely you have your own country to pontificate about?

          “And while I’m at it, I’ll just counter your blogpost with someone else who’s actually (shock!) qualified to comment on these issues: http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/2006/02/why_be_critical.html You may want to scroll down to the refutation of the “You can’t know Korea” argument.”
          -What is it with you and appealing to others to legitimize your viewpoints? Are you afraid that you by yourself would be unable to adequately defend your views? Furthermore, what makes you assume that this guy is qualified to comment on anything? (You only think this way because he agrees with you of course.) Also, go back to what I wrote earlier. The problem with people like yourself is that you yourselves are not korean, therefore you view all things korea through that lens whether you want to or not. Like I said, that is why you or this fellow for example are so comfortable deconstructing korean identity; because it has exactly negative effect on you, and in fact it probably reaps positive dividends for you. Probably you’re just a butthurt koreaphile who’s angry that he/she isn’t able to fully integrate into korean society. This is a plausible explanation for your undue animous towards indigenous korean notions of nationalism. Thus your unreasonable urge to support multiculturalism so that korea will be forced to accept you.
          “Anyway, I’ll leave now before I get any more aggravated about someone Being Wrong on the Internet.”
          -Good riddance.

      • Chucky3176

        Uh.. no. It’s not the sex ratio, it’s the economic social status which is the cause. The men you are talking about are 45+ year old farmers. The men in that generation does not suffer from lack of female. The females of their generation do not want to live and toil in the farms. That’s why these old middle aged farmers have a tough time finding wives so they resort to South East Asia.

        The sex ratio difference only started in the early 1980′s to mid 1990′s. The lack of women are the generation that are in their 20′s and 30′s. Those are the men who will have a bit more hard time looking for wives. But those are not the people who live out in the farms. They are mostly city dwellers. But also doesn’t necessarily mean they will go for foreign brides in the coming years. You are seriously misinformed.

        • Paulie Walnuts

          Which is why part of the blame is upon Korean themselves for not incentivizing marriage to these 45+ year old farmers. They wouldn’t toil if they were subsidized.

          There is no lack of 20s, 30s women either. White men aren’t having problem finding 20s 30s women so so much for that theory.

          • Chucky3176

            Again, you are misinformed. Korean farmers are heavily subsidized by the government. Rice for instance, is heavily subsidized. The government buys rice from farmers at inflated prices. So much is rice is bought each year by the government, they rot in storage bins. In the mean time, Korean consumers pay 10 times the average price for rice, than what consumers in the west pay.

            The subsidization of Korean farms and subsequent non market competition that’s reminicent of socialism is the very reason why Korean farms are so uncompetitive globally, so it’s precisely the reason why they remain poor.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            Okay, so Korean farmers ARE subsidized. Yet they can’t find wives because their wives are the ones who would have to toil in the fields? Wouldn’t the men be doing the work? Or hiring foreign workers to do the work for a negligible sum?

            I understand that perhaps it’s not very efficient for these farmers to keep their trade. Perhaps Korea should dissolve the industry as a whole and import food stuffs. Not sure if that would be a better alternative, but in my opinion the government must do everything it can to ensure the purity of the Korean tribe.

        • Brett Sanbon

          I shouldnt have left out the farmers. Damnit I alwats remember to bring up the farmers. Thanks for the input but I fear some of what you write is merely hearsay and not necessarily fact.

          • Chucky3176

            Go look up Korea’s sex ratio at birth, 2012 data. It’s not nearly as bad as you think it is. The ratio is no different from Sweden and other European countries.

            Also, South Korea is the first Asian country to be credited with coming out of the preference for boys. Girls are preferred in South Korea, read the 2010 NY Times article.

            http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/25/preferring-girls-over-boys/

      • Chucky3176

        The problem here is not the Korean netizens, it’s the Korean media that picks out few comments from the internet and makes it out as if the thoughts represents the majority, and writes big stories on it. Then another paper picks it up and copies the article word for word, and soon enough this whole affair turns into a scandal. All for what? Because of comments they find on the internet? Frankly, I just don’t see this supposed racial backlash against MS.Lee. Furthermore, the institutionalized racism maybe less in the West, the personal racism is worse in the West than in Korea, if you strictly go by the internet comments that are found on Western sites – it’s far worse.

    • You don’t understand the difference between culture/nationality and race/ethnicity.

      • Paulie Walnuts

        For Koreans, (national) identity and genetics just are one and the same. That’s the way it has, is, and should always be.

        The Western paradigm of the nation-state does not apply to East Asian relations. HTFH.

        • Vince

          The Western paradigm of racial identity and genetics does not apply to East Asian relations. HTFH.

          • http://theunlikelyexpat.blogspot.com/ durham stevens

            YOU ARE SO INSANELY RACIST!! Have you ever attended a Western university – where no one takes crap like this seriously?

        • sayitlikeitis

          http://viakorea.wordpress.com/2011/11/19/discussions-on-multiculturalism-in-korea/

          ^ interesting article about multiculturalism in korea. Anyways, Paulie Walnuts is correct, for koreans national identity and genetics are one and the same. I feel that this should be the same way for every nation in the world, ethnic and racial preservation is a virtue not a sin. Just as I support the right for some obscure tribe in south america or africa to maintain its ethnicity/race as well as culture I also support the same right for korea. If multiculturalism was just about a one off immigration of lets says a few thousand immigrants then I would have no problem with it, but the reality of it is that multiculturalism is about a sustained, indefinite immigration, one that could possibly result in the complete replacement of the indigenous people populating the host country. Tell me this, durham stevens, if you really enjoy and appreciate korea, would you still enjoy and appreciate korea if it no longer contained any koreans? Well, this is pretty much the end result of multiculturalism given long enough. Doesn’t this seem rather arbitrary to you? Whats the point of going around and replacing native populations that have been around for thousands of years with multiculturalism? Just because europe and the west are choosing to permanently alter themselves through multiculturalism doesnt mean that Korea has to.

          Also, you speak so arrogantly about what Korea should do, but I find it ironic that usually it is people like you who are the SAME ONES always complaining about how the west is so arrogant and bad etc etc. Well, what you are espousing here is textbook western arrogance (I’m pretty sure you are a white westerner), thinking that you have the right to tell Korea what it should or shouldn’t do. That actually makes you somewhat of a racist yourself in that you still uphold the outdated idea that whites/westerners get to call the shots in this world. As a ethnic korea, born in korea, I have more right to speak about korea than you ever will. People like you that can’t respect the people, the culture, and the popular will of the host country they are in need to be kicked the fuck out.

          Oh and btw, western universities are hotbeds of ideological indoctrination. They have long ceased to represent legitimate, unbiased, dispassionate knowledge and research. Outside of STEM fields, I wouldnt trust any conclusions about social/cultural/racial matters coming from a university.

          • Vince

            Firstly – Since you’re clearly paulie’s sock (I refuse to believe that more than one person can hold such a pitiable ideology), I’ll just refute your bizarre idea of Korean nationalism and genetics being irretrievably connected. Firstly, this development of the fusion of race-discourse and nationalism happened under Japanese colonialism. This is pretty easy to verify. Err no they aren’t. How about actually reading a book about Korean nationalism rather than assuming that whatever rubbish comes out of your mouth is an adequate reflection of? Here’s a good one as an introduction; “Ethnic nationalism in Korea: genealogy, politics, and legacy” by Gi-Wook Sin. Though I shan’t be holding my breath, because that would clearly be too much strain on your confirmation bias.

            And what about the big, unspoken paradox of the “cultural imperialism” thesis, that all these criticisms are wrong because they are imperialistic? — That the thesis itself derives from the peculiar context of Western universalism, makes a universal judgement, and is therefore -itself- an example of cultural imperialism? Alas, the travails of the normative cultural relativist.

            And what, according to you, is the great saviour of Korean nationalism? Why, none other than the West’s racial discourse, which you have now internalized and claimed as Korean! You must be a good colonial subject if there ever was one…

            “Oh and btw, western universities are hotbeds of ideological indoctrination….”

            Ahh yes, the classic argument of the crackpot: there’s a huge conspiracy so all the experts are wrong. Have you ever been to a Western university (seeing as you feel qualified to make this comment)? It sounds like you haven’t even been out of your basement for some time.

          • Vince

            Apologies for some of the post getting garbled in editing: the relevant part of the first paragraph should read -

            “This is pretty easy to verify: so, err, no they aren’t. How about actually reading a book about Korean nationalism rather than assuming that whatever rubbish comes out of your mouth is an adequate reflection of what all Koreans think?”

            “HTFH”, as you would say.

          • Vince

            And while I’m at it, I’ll just counter your blogpost with someone else who’s actually (shock!) qualified to comment on these issues: http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/2006/02/why_be_critical.html You may want to scroll down to the refutation of the “You can’t know Korea” argument.

            Anyway, I’ll leave now before I get any more aggravated about someone Being Wrong on the Internet.

          • sayitlikeitis

            Vince, the abundance of ad hominem arguments in your rebuttal is testament to the fragility of the views you hold as sacrosanct. Frequently people who are unable to mount a reasoned defense of their views resort to insults. Or rather, behavior such as yours is a telltale sign that somebody can’t really back up their views. You would not recognize truth if it hit you in the face; which is exactly what has happened here. You yourself say that you refuse to believe that more than one person can hold the views that Paulie and I do, however the translated comments of korean netizens paints a decidely different picture. To me, this demonstrates a willingness on your behalf to complete ignore reality and instead to only insulate yourself within your own ideological cocoon. Fine by me, but don’t try to export your poison to korea as well.

            I’m assuming you’re probably an american/western leftist, that being said I find it hilarious that you are defending multiculturalism which is a policy erected by korea’s corrupt elite class against the wishes of the lower and middle classes. I thought people of your political stripe were supposed to defend the masses, not support the will of the elites?

            “And what about the big, unspoken paradox of the “cultural imperialism” thesis, that all these criticisms are wrong because they are imperialistic?”
            -Are these criticisms not imperialistic? You are a product of the west, as is your thinking. Really, you are no better than the spanish conquistadors of the past who sincerely believed that they were civilizing the savages by destroying the native culture and imposing their own beliefs on to them. Of course, in this case, you subconsciously view yourself as the “conquistador” and the korean people as the “savages” who need to be civilized and brought into line.

            “And what, according to you, is the great saviour of Korean nationalism? Why, none other than the West’s racial discourse, which you have now internalized and claimed as Korean! You must be a good colonial subject if there ever was one…”
            -How myopic you are. You sincerely believe that the west has a monopoly on racial discourse. You honestly think that is all that there is. It appears to me that you are insinuating that all the non-western people of the world were unable to see race before the advent of the west. I can assure you that you are wrong, very very very wrong. Billions upon billions of non-westerners, and thousands upon thousands of non western history begs to differ.

            “Ahh yes, the classic argument of the crackpot: there’s a huge conspiracy so all the experts are wrong. Have you ever been to a Western university (seeing as you feel qualified to make this comment)? It sounds like you haven’t even been out of your basement for some time.”
            -Yawn, more ad hominem. Also you commited another logical fallacy with a fallacious appeal to authority. I’m positive that if you grew up in another time in another place (say for example the USSR) then you also would have similarly accused political dissidents of being crackpots because they doubted the ‘wisdom’ of all the ‘experts’ of the late USSR. You know in the not so distant past, most of the people considered ‘experts’ also used to believe that the earth was flat… You call me a crackpot because I disagree with you. What ever happened to tolerance of different opinions? It is evident you value diversity of skin color so much, yet at the same time you are essentially saying race doesn’t matter. Well, if race/ethnicity/etc. really doesn’t matter then all we are left with is ideas, and thus far you have demonstrated that you do not value diversity of thought, only diversity of skincolor, this shows how shallow you really are. And, FYI I currently go to a western university and I currently reside in a western country; and no, I don’t live here while advocating mass immigration/multiculturalism to this country and simultaneously trying to denigrate the majority population and deconstruct their identity. In short, I try my best to be a humble and grateful guest. Could you say the same?

            “This is pretty easy to verify: so, err, no they aren’t. How about actually reading a book about Korean nationalism rather than assuming that whatever rubbish comes out of your mouth is an adequate reflection of what all Koreans think?”
            -I’d say it probably is an adequate reflection of what *most koreans think. You aren’t Korean, thus Koreaness is unimportant to you. To put forth a rhetorical question, “Why should you truly care what Koreaness is? it doesn’t affect you after all.” I think its also funny that you think a singular book about korean nationalism is the end all and be all about korean nationalism. Its also risible that you think a book (any book for that matter) would be written completely dispassionately and without bias. So in answer to your question, I would have to say: yes, I do believe that whatever rubbish comes out of my mouth, or any of the other 70-80 million koreans in the world constitutes an extremely legitimate opinion of what Korean nationalism truly is. What’s worse (for you) is that a majority of koreans would agree with me. That is what makes you so mad, is that we won’t think the way you want us to. And because we don’t, you try to shame us into thinking so. Sorry dude, its not gonna work. Besides, whatever happened to live and let live? Surely you have your own country to pontificate about?

            “And while I’m at it, I’ll just counter your blogpost with someone else who’s actually (shock!) qualified to comment on these issues: http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/2006/02/why_be_critical.html You may want to scroll down to the refutation of the “You can’t know Korea” argument.”
            -What is it with you and appealing to others to legitimize your viewpoints? Are you afraid that you by yourself would be unable to adequately defend your views? Furthermore, what makes you assume that this guy is qualified to comment on anything? (You only think this way because he agrees with you of course.) Also, go back to what I wrote earlier. The problem with people like yourself is that you yourselves are not korean, therefore you view all things korea through that lens whether you want to or not. Like I said, that is why you or this fellow for example are so comfortable deconstructing korean identity; because it has exactly negative effect on you, and in fact it probably reaps positive dividends for you. Probably you’re just a butthurt koreaphile who’s angry that he/she isn’t able to fully integrate into korean society. This is a plausible explanation for your undue animous towards indigenous korean notions of nationalism. Thus your unreasonable urge to support multiculturalism so that korea will be forced to accept you.
            “Anyway, I’ll leave now before I get any more aggravated about someone Being Wrong on the Internet.”
            -Good riddance!

          • sayitlikeitis

            One more thing vince, the funny thing about korean “experts” is that they only have currency in western circles. Very few korean people are going to listen to, or take seriously what a non-korean korean expert is going to say. This is tantamount to a korean person immigrating to america, living there for a few years and then proclaiming himself to be an expert on america. Do you think anybody would take him seriously? I highly doubt it. The point is, the title korean “expert” actually only means that such a person would be considered such an expert outside of korea. Within korea, he has little to no currency. End of story.

  • Stories of butts

    Koreans being racist? So shocking.

  • Paulie Walnuts

    “I have 4 (four) Korean male friends (born, raised, and still living in Korea) with caucasian wives. They and their families are happy, proud, and enjoying the multicultural aspects of an international marriage. Not sure why Asian guys think only women marry ourside of your race. Just because some are scared of the idea doesnt mean all are. Ive noticed that all 4 Korean male friends have remarkable personalities and not all of them are lookers (if you know what I mean). Confidence will always trample cowardess when viewed side-by-side.”

    When has anyone ITT ever denied that Asian males can get white women? Non-sequitur, much?

    “I still understand why it is you say Korean blood makes a person Korean. But to those foreigners and their Korean families, they are Korean too. Maybe not by law or tradition, or even your opinion, but when has law or tradition stopped people from thinking and believing? I guarantee my in-laws view me as more of a Korean than they would you, and Im 6 foot 4 and white. But regardless of what you or anyone else thinks, they accept me. In my eyes, that is more important than naturalization.”

    You are profoundly mistaken. Yes, any foreigner can identify himself as Korean. Likewise, I could identify myself as “Swedish” and it would be one step away from a ward in an insane asylum.

    It is possible to be a Korean citizen but not Korean, but who’s calling them Korean? Not Koreans, unsurprisingly.

    Simply being born in Korea does not automatically mean you are Korean, in either sense of citizenship or blood. A non Korean-blooded person is obviously not Korean even if they’re born in the present geographical boundaries of South Korea; the individual possesses no Korean blood. In the other sense, citizenship, you are also gravely wrong. Korea is not like America; it does not grant automatic citizenship if you are born in Korea. These are the only people who acquire Korean nationality at birth:

    - Those whose either parent was a Korean national at birth (Stupid idea because it potentially gives automatic Korean citizenship to people not of 100% Korean blood.)
    - If the only Korean parent had died before the birth of the applicant, applicant is still eligible for acquisition if the aforementioned Korean parent had maintained Korean nationality at the time of death. (Probably a miniscule percentage of all births.)
    - Those born in Korean while both parents’ nationality was either unclear or nonexistent. (Probably a miniscule percentage of all births.)
    - Abandoned children that were found in Korea. (Also probably a miniscule percentage of all births.)

    Funny you mention what your in-laws think. Out in public, if you and I were walking down a Seoul street, and we had random Koreans identify who the Korean was – me or you – who do you think Koreans would think is Korean? Your in-laws view you as part of their immediate family, not as partaking in the blood relationship that is necessary for one to call himself “Korean”, so stop conflating family for larger Korean membership, which you do not possess.

    “When you begin to limit foreigners to “Itaewon’s finest” you are doing a great disservice to those that truly do care enough to learn the language, culture, history…etc. It is unreasonable for you to impose your pure blood views on all Koreans because like it or not, although you and Koreans share a “bond separated by thousands of miles” most dont see you as truly Korean either. The only way an ABK gets noticed as Korean is if they do something great, or surprisingly enough terrible.”

    Yes, Shitaewoners and foreign English teachers alike are, for the most part, a depressing harbinger of things to come, should Korea to continue to endorse multiculturalism. To be fair, half of the blame here lies upon Koreans themselves for inviting such unscrupulous characters to begin with. I have already stated that Korea should be very careful in how it admits foreigners, not to implement a blanket restriction on all immigration to Korea.

    Here’s another fun example of what I’m talking about:

    http://populargusts.blogspot.com/2009/12/french-foreign-language-teacher-scandal.html

    “I don’t know if this was the start, but I recall a howl or protest about 25 years ago after a Frenchman wrote an article in Le Monde, the French daily, describing how he had enjoyed life in Korea, drinking, seducing women and teaching language despite being completely unqualified. After this, people started looking askance at foreign teachers, and the authorities introduced regulations requiring them, some what unnecessarily as many were just conversation teachers, to have university degrees.

    Luc hardly looks like a Young Turk. He blends in discreetly with his surroundings with his out-of-fashion suit, outdated tie and his 50 franc Made in Korea shoes . But he has a chance here: he is French and speaks with ease a high school level English. As a result, many doors have opened. To his dazzled eyes, they open the caverns of Ali Baba where dollars can be picked up with a shovel. But it would be hard to find here the Forty Thieves. Koreans pay on the nail. By teaching his mother tongue, Luke needed only a few months to have a comfortable apartment. He goes twice a year on vacation. For one, he takes the grand tour of Southeast Asia in good hotels – revenge on the ‘road’ – and for the other he goes to France to ‘see family’ and spend his American ‘green paper.’ “Here,” he says, pleased, “I have the advantage of belonging to a small foreign community – less than three hundred people -thus much in demand. Unlike us, the Koreans do not want to throw out their immigrants.

    Korea still has a bad reputation – probably less deserved than before – which probably explains why it still has ‘niches’ available. All the French met in Korea say they want to ‘move to Japan’. But few are so lucky. Though arrangements can be found with the Korean government, the Japanese are hunting systematically all those who try to move to Japan to work. A foreigner is irreplaceable to teach his language. However, it is known in Japan that foreigners are not so necessary anymore, while Koreans, more modest, are more welcoming. French teachers in Seoul, waiting to ‘make yen’, ‘make won’.”

    Oh, the irony – a foreigner telling a Korean that Korean people don’t consider him Korean. Imagine me telling a Igbo that Igbo people don’t consider him Igbo. Not only are you unqualified to speak on Korean identity, what you say is miles from reality. There’s a reason why my students sometimes question my American-ness. There’s a reason why I can trace my maternal and paternal grandfathers to Korea. There’s a reason why I can truly call Korea, the land of my ancestors, my home. There’s a reason why I am in Korea on a F-4, while you will never qualify for one. But sure, leave it to a white dude – and probably an Asian festishist, at that – to adjudicate on Korean identity. You aren’t Korean, hate it to break it to you.

    “Have you quite finished writing your little fascist mini-manifesto? Seriously, give me a fucking break.”

    Yep, my views entail advocacy of a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism. I have advocated the extermination of foreigners in Korea. LOLCOPTOR. I hope you’re smarter than that.

    “Paulie are you sure you don’t work for some Nazi eugenics doctors? Because that is who you sound like. “Genetic purity” is an inherently and appallingly racist and repulsive idea. Not to mention being dangerous, and outdated. Has anyone ever told you that “race” only exists as a social construct – and has no scientific meaning? At least if you live in a world where fake Nazi science is no longer respected by anyone with a brain. Dude, open a social science textbook sometime, it might do you good.”

    Classic red herring.

    No one here is arguing that Korea should engage in ethnic cleansing like Nazi Germany, so I can’t quite wrap my head around why you played the Nazi card. It’s a cheap way of arguing and not very honest.

    Distinction: Claims of German “purity’ are laughable, as they are a land of mutts. Therefore, Germans have next to zero validity for their claims of preserving “German purity”. On the contrary, claims of Korean purity are scientifically proven.

    Distinction: Nazi Germany systematically engaged in genocide. Koreans never have. Why? Because the conditions that lead to genocide have never existed in Korea; Nazi Germany had a significant minority Jewish population. Korea has always been homogeneous.

    There is a difference between the preservation of ones race and the demeaning or active extermination of other groups. Demeaning or exterminating members of a different tribe can only take place if multiple tribes exist in proximity.

    Race is indeed a social construct. Which is why Nazi claims of “white purity” were so laughable. The Nazis were looking to purify their race. This is true. I’ve already pointed out that their efforts were doomed from the start, as Nazi Germany was hardly close to being 100% “Aryan”. Any claims about “white purity” are completely contradictory, laughable, and easily dismissible to boot. If they are supremacist, well that’s even worse; no “race” is better than any other. Not only was their goal conceptually flawed, but ethnic cleansing has historically failed most of the time. So no, I’m not advocating ethnic cleansing. Continuing to play the Hitler card when I’ve already addressed this issue is a rather cheap way of arguing. Find a post of me advocating ethnic cleansing and you can play your Hitler card. You can’t, can you?

    In contrast, tribes are very real entities. Do you call Japanese people Swedish people? No. Do you call Igbos Anglo Saxons? No.
    Not all tribes are identical. Different tribes exist and trace their heritage through different intermediate ancestors, even though all humans trace their DNA to an original, common ancestor. Does the group that migrated out of Africa and headed toward Europe have much in common with the group that ended up in the Korean peninsula? Nope. You are conflating race for ethnicity, as these terms are not interchangeable. You could say “Chinese people are ‘Asian’”, but the reverse – “‘Asians’ are Chinese”. would not be true. The same is true for “Jews are ‘white’”, but not “Whites’ are Jews”. There is no such thing as a White or Asian race.

    In contrast, the current geographical location of modern Korea has been inhabited by the same native people throughout history, for the most part: “Studies of polymorphisms in the human Y-chromosome have so far produced evidence to suggest that the Korean people have a long history as a distinct, mostly endogamous ethnic group, with successive waves of people moving to the peninsula and three major Y-chromosome haplogroups.[18]” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans Studies reveal a comparative lack of ASI admixture in Koreans as well. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0029502

    I acknowledge that the Korean diaspora has, in effect, diluted the purity of the Korean people, insofar as diaspora members marrying non-Koreans and producing hybrid offspring. However, there is a distinction between these hybrids being further absorbed into the majority Korean gene pool – the Koreans currently living in Korea – vs. their diasporic locations. Ultimately however, the mere existence of hybrids necessitates a dilution of the larger Korean people as a whole, which might be fine for diasporic Koreans in other multicultural nations like America where they would be absorbed into the larger American population, but not Korea where the original gene pool lies.

    If Korea embraces foreigners then it will necessarily erase, or dilute, for lack of a better word, just what it means to be “Korean”…unless every foreigner in Korea somehow does not marry a Korean, which is obviously not within the realm of possibilities.

    “YOU ARE SO INSANELY RACIST!! Have you ever attended a Western university – where no one takes crap like this seriously?”

    NAME CALLING IS SUCH A SMART WAY TO ARGUE!!!!!!1111111 ARGHHHHHHHH!!!! I actually graduated from a top 40 national U.S university, but I’m not sure how that has any bearing on the discussion at hand.

    “Firstly – Since you’re clearly paulie’s sock (I refuse to believe that more than one person can hold such a pitiable ideology), I’ll just refute your bizarre idea of Korean nationalism and genetics being irretrievably connected. Firstly, this development of the fusion of race-discourse and nationalism happened under Japanese colonialism. This is pretty easy to verify. Err no they aren’t. How about actually reading a book about Korean nationalism rather than assuming that whatever rubbish comes out of your mouth is an adequate reflection of? Here’s a good one as an introduction; “Ethnic nationalism in Korea: genealogy, politics, and legacy” by Gi-Wook Sin. Though I shan’t be holding my breath, because that would clearly be too much strain on your confirmation bias.”

    This website bans sockpuppets so there goes that accusation. Funny how you just deny, deny deny. Science backs up claims of Korean purity so everything you just mentioned is pretty moot. Next.

    “And what about the big, unspoken paradox of the “cultural imperialism” thesis, that all these criticisms are wrong because they are imperialistic? — That the thesis itself derives from the peculiar context of Western universalism, makes a universal judgement, and is therefore -itself- an example of cultural imperialism? Alas, the travails of the normative cultural relativist. And what, according to you, is the great saviour of Korean nationalism? Why, none other than the West’s racial discourse, which you have now internalized and claimed as Korean! You must be a good colonial subject if there ever was one…”

    What criticisms in regards to what are imperialistic? I’ve mentioned nothing about imperialism, but nice strawman. The West’s racial discourse does not apply to tribal relations, my friend. So no, the intellectual framework here is not about the preservation of a race at all, rather it is the preservation of a unique, homogeneous tribe. Nice job conflating race for tribe, though.

    “And while I’m at it, I’ll just counter your blogpost with someone else who’s actually (shock!) qualified to comment on these issues: http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/2006/02/why_be_critical.html You may want to scroll down to the refutation of the “You can’t know Korea” argument.”

    That’s cute. A mutt, born of a Korean mother and black American soldier, speaking on Korean identity. Yes, he is indeed qualified to speak on this topic. He’s just as qualified as Mr. Sanborn above. It really strikes a nerve with foreigners when they hear Koreans commenting on their fundamental inability to qualify as Korean. I argue that they shouldn’t be. Just as I’d take absolutely no offense when a Swedish person would say “Paule Walnuts, you are not Swedish.”, I advise foreigners do the same.

    • Brett Sanbon

      ” There’s a reason why I am in Korea on a F-4, while you will never qualify for one. But sure, leave it to a white dude – and probably an Asian festishist, at that – to adjudicate on Korean identity. You aren’t Korean, hate it to break it to you.”

      1. Never said I am Korean.
      2. No I am here on an F6 visa. Same thing.
      3. Asian fetishist? Really?
      4. You just turned from well-spoken to a prick.

      Just did a survey in the office and ABK are considered foreigners too. How bout that? Not to your students, of course, i mean leave it to grade school students to determine reality.

      You are a really good selective reader. I commend you on your strengths. They do not help in dialogue, as you too are picking pieces of information that only support your views.

      BTW during my survey coworkers state “children born of even 1 Korean parent and 1 non-Korean, in Korea, are Korean.” Yup even half-bloods are Korean to the true pure-bloods here.

      Seiously do you follow Korean pop culture? There are more than a few half-Korean stars and they are considered Korean by the general public. Maybe you just need to be famous to be considered Korean….

      • Paulie Walnuts

        I never insinuated that you were Korean. You made it clear that you’re a white guy so I don’t know why you brought that up.

        If you think the F-4 and the F-6 are the same thing then you are completely wrong.

        The F-6 is given to foreign nationals married to Korean nationals. I am, in theory, qualified for the F-6. The F-4 is only given to people of Korean descent. You will never qualify for the F-4. Gee, I wonder why. So no, they are totally different classes of visas.

        If you aren’t an Asian fetishist, then I apologize. Safer to assume the rule, not the exception.

        American born Koreans are foreigners? Is that what your coworkers said? Perhaps they are ill-informed:

        The National Assembly legalized dual citizenship for foreign-born Koreans last year. The law automatically considers them a Korean citizen without the approval and consent of the oversea Koreans. If you are a 2nd-generation Gyopo (Korean-American, Korean-Canadian, Korean-etc) who was born after May 4, 1988 and your father was a Korean citizen at the time of your birth, you are not eligible for any visas (F4, E2, etc). Instead, you will have to put your name in your Korean family registry and apply for a Korean passport. The laws now state that F4-eligible Korean-Americans who were not over the age of 22 by May 2010 MUST claim dual citizenship and make a Korean passport. This whole process takes about 3 to 4 months, and you will also have to fill out a military exemption form if you are a male. If you are a female, you are allowed to renounce your Korean citizenship after putting your name in the registry. If you are a male, then you can’t renounce your citizenship until you turn 36 or decide to serve.

        Your coworkers views aren’t quite in tune with Korean law, apparently.

        Better KOREAN students judge my Koreanness than a white foreigner. Did that hurt? Sorry if it did. If every Korean in Korea was replaced by an equal number of Ben Hendersons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Henderson_%28fighter%29 I’m sure your coworkers would agree that Korea would’ve ceased to be Korea.

        • Brett Sanbon

          “You aren’t Korean, hate it to break it to you.”- I repeat, I never said I was Korean.

          I personally, never judged your “Koreanness”. Only asked other KOREANS.

          My coworkers’ OPINIONS are just as valid as your students’ OPINIONS.

          Better 13 year olds judge your “Koreanness” than adults who live in the real world, not in your head…. whatever you say…

          Again, law and tradition only go so far as to mold what people believe.

          I feel like we are moving in circles here. Therefore, until you acknowledge that you are (Korean-)AMERICAN, and hold very conservative OPINIONS, and SELECT what you want to read and reply with, I think it is fair to say that our “dialogue” is over.

          For fuck’s sake if it means that much to you, you can be Korean. However, my kids will be too. At least my kids will have respect and understanding for Koreans and non-Koreans alike, while yours will be subject to, frankly, YOU.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            Right. You yourself never said “I am Korean”, but you brought up the fact that your in-laws view YOU, a white American male, MORE Korean than me. Pretty pointless to bring this up if you yourself acknowledge that you aren’t Korean.

            Your coworkers seem to think I’m not Korean. That’s pretty funny because if they saw me on the street, would they say the same? I’m guessing they wouldn’t. Can they deny the fact that I am 100%, pureblooded Korean? No they wouldn’t be able to no, more than I could deny that 1+1=2. You can be Korean AND be a citizen of a different country; the two are not mutually exclusive. So stop equivocating.

            The law was predicated on the Korean ethos – Korean identity is nothing more than the blood relation among all Koreans. For Koreans born overseas, citizenship is bestowed through the father, which is at least marginally better than deriving a Korean identity through one’s mother – I mean, really…who thinks guys like Hines Ward and Ben Henderson should be automatically given Korean citizenship because their moms married foreigners? They shouldn’t and the law reflects this belief. Better to give offspring Korean citizenship if they trace their Korean lineage patrilinearly.

            When have I not acknowledged that I am both Korean and American? Certain individuals are afforded multiple tribal identities. I am allowed to identify myself as Korean, when necessary and American, when necessary. No disagreement here.

            Don’t throw out terms without defining them. Conservatism is so vague that it’s not clear how it’s even relevant to the debate at hand. Cherry-picking isn’t a valid charge either, considering the majority of Koreans define Korean-ness in terms of blood relations, contrary to what the handful of your coworkers have to say.

            I “can” be Korean? You don’t “choose” to be Korean; you either are, or you aren’t, genius. Your kids will possess no patrilineal Korean lineage so, no they wont be Korean. Sorry to burst your bubble, Mr. Sanbon. No need for the Konglish; you don’t have a Korean name, so stop deluding yourself. My kids will have respect and understanding, too. Except they wont be deluded into thinking that simply having a Korean mother somehow suffices for being “Korean”. And that has nothing to do with respecting or understanding, it has everything to do with acknowledging reality.

            As for your bit about mutts, I’m not sure what relevance they have, if any, at this juncture in the debate.

          • Brett Sanbon

            Nonsense, if a Chinese saw you on the street they would think you are Chinese too. No, can’t argue with blood, but you look Asian. Most Chinese, Japanese, or Koreans cant tell the difference.

            Finally, if you would bother to learn “your own” fucking language you would know that “산본” is most definitely not a name. Doesn’t sound close. Sanbon is a place located in the Gyeonggi province (line 4).

            Just eat this, by the way.
            “A child whose father or mother is a national of the Republic of Korea at the time of his/her birth shall obtain Korean Nationality. (Article 2.(1).1, 「Nationality Act」)”

            “A child born between a Korean national and a foreign national obtains Korean nationality upon his/her birth OR through affiliation by the father.”

            Please continue posting irrelevant and false claims. You must think google isn’t a click away….

        • Brett Sanbon

          and the name is SANBON 산본!!

          Still waiting to hear about the half-blooded stars.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Korean_Americans

          Let me know if you find Hines Ward.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            The eyeball test is a useful heuristic as it immediately eliminates anyone obviously not Korean. If you can’t even pass that, then you’re pretty far from Korean, I’d say.

            I know it’s not perfect, but the fact that a Chinese person would mistake me for Chinese is irrelevant, especially considering the fact that the people in question here are you and I. You wouldn’t be able to pass for Chinese either, lest pass for Korean.

            This is why blood is so important. Your coworkers can perfunctorily take a gander at both my father’s and mother’s family registries and trace back my Korean lineage all the way to my earliest forefathers, just like your coworkers could do for themselves. A Finnish person can’t. An Igbo can’t. A Japanese person can’t. A Chinese person can’t. Likewise, you can’t. Neither will your kids.

            Cool, start dishing out the expletives. Alright, I didn’t realize Sanbon referred to the city of Sanbon. Did I hit a nerve somewhere? LOLLERSKATES @ grasping for straws now.

            Nothing you just posted in regards to the new Korean citizenship law conflicts with my original statements, “Those whose either parent was a Korean national at birth” and “You can be a citizen of Korea without being Korean”. Here is what I said verbatim with regards to your future children, “Your kids will possess no patrilineal Korean lineage so, no they wont be Korean.”

            Your kids may possess Korean citizenship, but that doesn’t suffice for being Korean. You seem to be a little lacking in the reading comprehension department…it’d be a travesty if you’re actually an English teacher in Korea presently.

          • Jytte

            Hi Most Koreans can tell us apart from Koreans, Chinese, Japanese by instinct. I guess it has something to do with neuralogical pathways. By eye contact there is instant link between Koreans.
            But this “link” gets dimmer and dimmer from half-Koreans..

  • Maria

    Here’s what I don’t understand. Many of the Koreans opposed are complaining about how much she will be paid as a member of the National Assembly and all of the perks that come with that position.

    Is this not more of a problem regarding National Assembly members’ benefits? Do not all the other National Assembly members receive similar salaries and benefits as Ms. Lee? She is in the same position and doing the same work as the ethnic-Koreans that are in the assembly. Why should she be paid less than the others for doing the same job?

    Likewise, if people have a problem with the fact that she wasn’t elected but rather received a proportional candidate’s seat, then why aren’t they complaining about the ethnic-Koreans that also received placements as proportional candidates? Isn’t this an issue of how your government is run, not race/ethnicity? Is Jasmine Lee the one that created Korea’s system of proportional candidates seats? No.Then don’t blame her for it.

    I agree there’s plenty of valid criticism over her various political positions and some of the government’s policies towards the foreign population. However, I’m seeing very few valid arguments coming from the opposition. Most of it has been slurs and petty, hateful insults.

    • Paulie Walnuts

      The million dollar question – Is she Korean?

      If she is, the criticisms against her are invalid.

      If she isn’t, the criticisms against her are valid.

      A Japanese person would be well justified in being offended at an American politician pontificating in the Diet.

      • Chucky3176

        She is Korean, as her citizenship paper states. But the issue is not her race, but the issue is raised by the opposition party members whose job is to dig out dirt on opposing candidates of the opposing party. And it just happens that there is some controversy on Ms Lee’s education diploma, and her claims on a TV show that she was a medical student. There seems to be lot of mix up of how the education system is different from Korea and Phillipines which may explain this confusion. But to the opposition party, it’s a opportunity to exploit, in typical Korean fashion.

        Look, it’s not just Ms Lee who has been attacked. Look around all the Korean candidates, and see how much dirt that are being thrown around in the rough Korean political arena. If Ms. Lee is going to survive Korea’s political arena and thrive, she will also have to learn to defend herself and get used to the mud throwing contest. Just about every Korean candidates have been accused of something and told to resign. Tell me which Korean candidate hasn’t? What makes you think Ms.Lee is going to be spared just because she’s a Filipina? Welcome to Korea and welcome to Korean politics.

        • Brett Sanbon

          Aparently, to Pauly off the Wall Nuts the law is right regarding people with Korean blood but wrong when talking about non-Korean blood. Such inconsistancy.

          Chucky I enjoy your pov. Keep on posting. Even to prove me wrong.

  • Chucky3176

    South Korea has 1.4 million foreigners as of 2011, representing 3% of total population. About a million of them are foreign workers. These foreign workers are guest workers who stay in Korea for 5 year cycles. During that time, they send back to their countries, on the average 1 million out of 1.5 million to 2 million won that they earn in Korea. That means on the average, South Korea is leaking $12 billion a year to foreign countries. What’s happening here is that South Korean workers are fed up with foreign workers coming in here, grabbing jobs and lowering the wages of Korean workers. Korean worker’s wages have not grown at all since the early 2000′s, as more and more foreign workers come in to grab work from Korean workers.

    Its not that there are not enough Korean workers to man these jobs. That’s complete fallacy. It’s just that Korean workers cannot live on wages that are provided by Korean factories and businesses. Unlike the foreign workers who are provided living accommodations, Korean workers are responsible for their own housing and food which the foreign workers do not have to worry about. The result is all too predictable. Korean workers cannot live on cheap wage so they shun these business, so these workers end up unemployed or under employed. The businesses continue to hire cheap wage workers at the expense of wages for Koreans not improving for years and years. But these influx of foreign workers, do not help the Korean economy because they mail all their earned wages back to their home countries to their families. The dollars do not stay in Korea. Result, other countries reap benefits, Korean domestic economy without Korean workers earning decent wages, goes down and tanks.

    Why do so many foreign workers prefer Korea over other Asian countries? Because the foreign workers in Korea earn the highest in Asia. If things are so bad in Korea, why do they line up outside in Korean embassies, in mobs, trying to get in?

    • Brett Sanbon

      This is just nitpicking. It is a problem in Every Single Country In The World (trying not to be too overly obnoxious with caps),

      The problem is, many small companies and factories could not stay in business if paying full salary to only Korean workers, because you are right that Koreans will not and can not live on 1.3-1.7 million won/month salaries even if they are provided living quarters and 3 square meals a day.

      Of course, the workers sending the money abroad is bad for Korea, but not having the business in the first place would be equally harmful.

      It is essentially the same argument in America between US citizens and South American immigrants. They are also sending huge sums of money home. They work, eat, and live in a shared home (in the teens of people) and don’t spend much stateside.

      Of course, governments are always looking for ways to solve this problem. My suggestion, lower minimum wage on labor-based jobs and require the bosses to be more generous if business is good. This goes for Korea or America. Disparity in Korea is quite high. Most office workers (Seoul) on average make just over 3 million won per month. While bosses have their luxury cars and luxury homes and luxury whatever.

      As much as we can complain, we cant complain because this is our chosen capitalist lifestyle.

  • Chucky3176

    Koreans aren’t racist, Koreans are nationalists. Case in point, the Chinese Koreans. These people are immigrants from China who are of ethnic Korean extractions. These people have Korean DNA, but their nationality is China and they are culturally closer to China than South Korea, and many of these people consider themselves loyal citizens of China. Therefore they are considered Chinese by many South Koreans.

  • Chucky3176

    The problem here is not the Korean netizens, it’s the Korean media that picks out few comments from the internet and makes it out as if the thoughts represents the majority, and writes big stories on it. Then another paper picks it up and copies the article word for word, and soon enough this whole affair turns into a scandal. All for what? Because of comments they find on the internet? Frankly, I just don’t see this supposed racial backlash against MS.Lee. Furthermore, the institutionalized racism maybe less in the West, the personal racism is worse in the West than in Korea, if you strictly go by the internet comments that are found on Western sites – it’s far worse.

    • manchester united

      I wholeheartedly agree, and Korean media has a habit of sensationalizing.

  • Jong Kim

    Once again, Korea working hard to reiterate the fact that it’s 40 years behind the rest of the world and still very racist and sexist.

    • Paulie Walnuts

      Yeah because it’s not like America is equally sexist…

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/09/rape-us-military

      “A female soldier in Iraq is more likely to be attacked by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire.”

      …and racist.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Vincent_Chin
      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/07/lady-chinky-eyes-papa-johns-store-uses-receipt-to-call-woman-racial-slur_n_1191434.html

      So much for your theory.

      • Brett Sanbon

        please, just tear up your American passport…. Oh, wait! You can’t! You ONLY have American citizenship…..

        You’d be stuck without a passport or a country seeing as how you aren’t Korean and all….. shitty luck, being born in America.

        • Paulie Walnuts

          “Please, just tear up your American passport…. Oh, wait! You can’t! You ONLY have American citizenship…..You’d be stuck without a passport or a country seeing as how you aren’t Korean and all….. shitty luck, being born in America.”

          Yes, because possessing a passport is a requisite of being considered a citizen of a particular country. Impregnable logic there. And to think that Korea accepted people like you to teach them English, lol just lol.

          • Brett Sanbon

            I must be mistaken. Who is the teacher in this argument?

            After I post this comment you can take the last word. Anyone reading this thread can realize the flaws in your arguments. Korean nationality means Korean, unless the law isn’t valid anymore….. seemed okay when it helped your cause.

            I see no flaws in my reading comprehension and I am not “cherry picking” that which my eyes want to see. By law, any child born to any person, male or female, who is a Korean citizen at the time of birth is a Korean national. Not limited to the paternal side.

            Shiuld have taken advice of someone else. “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” Guess you beat me. Congrats.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            Perhaps it was this statement of mine that you were contesting, “Simply being born in Korea does not automatically mean you are Korean, in either sense of citizenship or blood.”

            Assume two Americans have a child in Korea. With that child be considered Korean? No, he wont. So my statement is valid. I have already addressed the other statements you seem to be questioning.

            Next, I ask you to point out where specifically I stated the law was both valid and invalid at the same time, and with regards to what specifically.

            “By law, any child born to any person, male or female, who is a Korean citizen at the time of birth is a Korean national. Not limited to the paternal side.”

            Again, these children might be considered Korean CITIZENS. Whether they possess 100% Korean BLOOD – and thus true Korean identity – is a whole different story. You can’t seem to grasp this, unfortunately. I can be a citizen of Japan and possess no Japanese blood. Doesn’t make me or my kids “Japanese” in any useful sense of the word.

            Why would the Korean citizenship law extend automatic Korean citizenship to overseas Koreans born ONLY to Korean fathers? Because these children can at least trace their Korean roots through their father. While not able to call themselves real Koreans, this case is at least marginally better than mutts who trace their Korean lineage through their mothers. That is part of the Korean ethos, whether you’d like to admit it or not.

        • holykamote

          ^ Bravo, good sir.

          I wish he’d stop using the thesaurus and going around in circles. Wasted bout a good 15 minutes trying to figure out what he’s saying. All I got was: tracing one’s genealogy until god knows when is more important than anything because no one else can do it except Koreans…and that being pure Korean is just so freakin awesome!!!! I’m American by paper but I’m still phenotypically Korean and by blood so HA. Also…so. many. wrongly conjugated words.

          Paulie Pistachios,
          I don’t know which Top 40 universities in the US he went to but damn bro, what do they teach you there? Please apply for a Korean citizenship, renounce your American one, and boost your immense nationalistic ego there instead of being in America. You’ll blend in better there. You treat “being Korean” like some kind of exclusive clique. There’s a LOT of English language school Korean students here and they behave like they’re the shit. It’s funny cuz some of them have nothing to show for it but that doesn’t stop them behaving like you. You better be proud. Since you guys have a true home, some of the students can’t adapt well to the Western culture and they get depressed because of isolation and even BLAME the locals for their hard time. -insert Cleveland laugh here-

          My sources are legit. Trust me, these are 20 something pure Korean students born, bred, and raised in the motherland, my naturalized Korean-Canadian friends, and my pure Korean namchin but you know I can’t really determine “Koreanness” cuz I’m not one.

          Okay, we get it. Cultural difference/view is in play here but technological advancements made globalization and global interdependence possible and it is already imminent, no matter how hard you try to stop it. About the promoting multicultural stint that people think are being done by conglomerates: Welcome to capitalism! Where corporations adapt to anything to make a profit! If you want to stay pure, close yourself up and see how you hold up…look at your Northern neighbour….they make it work…

          I really can’t relate or comprehend because I have no “home” or a strong sense of identity like pure blooded Koreans because I’m a dirty diluted European-South East Asian-Canadian whose fellow people wipe asses or floors cuz the locals think they’re better than that. I also don’t have a degree YET so who am I to say….

          You’re not the only one who can pick and pack arguments cuz man TL;DR your posts.

          • holykamote

            bravo to Brett btw.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “I’m American by paper but I’m still phenotypically Korean and by blood so HA.”

            Every “American” is American by paper. The only people who are allowed to call themselves truly “American” are the ones that modern “Americans” wiped out en masse via genocide, aka Native Americans. You can level the “American by paper” charge to any American, as “America” is a tribe defined in terms of something other than bloodline.

            Is this supposed to be some serious charge that undermines my arguments? Tribal theory allows for certain individuals to identify with multiple tribes.

            “I don’t know which Top 40 universities in the US he went to but damn bro, what do they teach you there?”

            Relevance? I can assure you that, Mr. Sanbon – and 95+% of English teachers in Korea, for that matter – probably didn’t graduate from a t40 U.S. national university. (Sorry, just felt like tooting my own horn there)

            “Please apply for a Korean citizenship, renounce your American one, and boost your immense nationalistic ego there instead of being in America. You’ll blend in better there.”

            Actually I’m already in the fatherland – Korea, just to clear any confusion. No need to renounce my American citizenship, as I am allowed to identify with the American tribe. There is a difference between blind nationalism and explicating Korean identity. I fully acknowledge the many faults with Korean society and disapprove of many actions of the Korean government, so your charge of “immense nationalistic ego” is without merit on all counts.

            “You treat “being Korean” like some kind of exclusive clique. There’s a LOT of English language school Korean students here and they behave like they’re the shit. It’s funny cuz some of them have nothing to show for it but that doesn’t stop them behaving like you. You better be proud. Since you guys have a true home, some of the students can’t adapt well to the Western culture and they get depressed because of isolation and even BLAME the locals for their hard time.”

            Being Korean is indeed an exclusive clique. How many pureblooded Koreans are there? Not nearly as many mutt Americans. Not being included the Korean tribe shouldn’t be a source of angst or dejection, just like how I wouldn’t feel bad if a Norwegian person said, “You are not and will never be Norwegian”. The only people who are butthurt over being deprived of a Korean identity are exactly the individuals who should never be part of the Korean tribe to begin with. If you are a foreigner in Korea who possesses pure morals, assimilates fully into Korean society, and respects Korean institutions, then for all intents and purposes, I would have no problem calling you Korean. What percentage of foreigners fit this bill? A very small percentage, I’d say. I may never consider you “truly Korean” but I would not harbor any tribal animosity towards you, and as a foreigner, that’s all you are entitled to. Period.

            To the FOBS in America who hold those attitudes, behave that way, and blame Americans for their problems, I sincerely say STFU and GTFO if you hate America so much. No one forced FOBS to come here – thus responsibility lies on them – and if they fail to assimilate, as you say, then they don’t deserve to be here.

            “Technological advancements made globalization and global interdependence possible and it is already imminent, no matter how hard you try to stop it.

            I have already stated that – and i quote – globalization might be inevitable; the extent to which Korea is affected by it is up to Koreans to decide. So stop playing soothsayer, as it’s a disservice to everyone ITT.

            “I really can’t relate or comprehend because I have no “home” or a strong sense of identity like pure blooded Koreans because I’m a dirty diluted European-South East Asian-Canadian whose fellow people wipe asses or floors cuz the locals think they’re better than that. I also don’t have a degree YET so who am I to say”

            Again, Korean tribal exclusivity has nothing to do with tribal superiority. You relate to your tribe in the same way I relate to my tribe. Nowhere does Korean tribal identity exclude the possibility of non-Korean tribes being unable to find other sources of strong identity – because other tribes do, in fact. Not sure what your degree spiel has to do with anything.

            You come off as overly smug without any modicum of logical credibility, regrettably, and your thinly-veiled resentment is more obvious than a zebra’s stripes.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            Edit, “Nowhere does Korean tribal identity exclude the possibility of non-Korean tribes being able to find other sources of strong identity…”

            and make that a “top 35 national U.S. university”

          • holykamote

            Thank you for enlightening me on the Native American issue…like we don’t know any of that AT ALL in Canada. I can guarantee you we have more information on our tribes up here than the US. Ever heard of sarcasm? Or is it some rare animal that you’ve never heard of? What arguments? Please tell me something new…Koreans have big egos concerning their identity. Why? They think being pure blooded is exclusive…like you do. That’s what I just simply said. Being American is defined by paper, you’re right. The only thing that saves your ass in that argument is the ambiguity with determining what is American/European/Other commonwealths here because identification through bloodline is completely impossible due to their strong global influence (and gene pool mixing) even before modern globalization occurred. Due to that ambiguity, mostly no one in the West can identify dead relatives like you through bloodline so you have something to be proud of.

            I think we’re on the same level here….the resentment towards our respected people or the tribe we identify with exist but you endorse the pure blooded thing a little too far. Big deal? Korea can keep their gene pool the way it is and keep their own genes and mutations to themselves for all I care. You’re Korean too so what do I expect? LOL Of course you’re going to preach the same song. You’re replying and defending in arguments and opinion because your people is under scrutiny for something that many other countries have as well. You’re sensitive of the bad things people from other cultures say about your people, that’s normal. We’re just addressing HOW explicitly xenophobic some of your people can get. Sorry for being politically correct? Don’t blow up on some news blog.

            And you think YOU’RE NOT smug for preaching and sticking down posters’ throats that being pure Korean is freakin awesome and degrading the posters by telling them “insert words here telling them their argument is flawed therefore are intelligently challenged because they don’t agree with you”? You’re basically saying that we should accept “being Korean” is exclusive since it’s so rare to have a pure blood line. You say you accept the flaws of the Korean society but others can see differently from what you can and do, keep that in mind.

            “Again, Korean tribal exclusivity has nothing to do with tribal superiority.”

            Okay you tell me this and but why do you seem to treat the former like the latter? It seems to me that you’ve moulded these together but you’re trying to separate it now? Nationalism and identity is another complicated thing to separate. Who knows or who is allowed to differentiate the two? exclusivity/superiority and nationalism/identity are all greyish areas. It’s not black and white. You said being Korean is an exclusive thing because of the pure blood line (countless times, I might add.) but you’re Korean so of course you’re going to treat it with superiority against other tribes you speak of because you’re part of it. That’s what you sound like. Who wants to be a dirty non pure whatever anyway? Like the rest of the world?

            My resentment of what? Not being pure blood? The Korean people? Sorry for not liking everything about something so great. I have to let my namchin know.

            “Actually I’m already in the fatherland – Korea, just to clear any confusion. No need to renounce my American citizenship, as I am allowed to identify with the American tribe.”

            Cuz being American is exclusive too…in paper of course. People would kill for an American citizenship.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “Koreans have big egos concerning their identity. Why? They think being pure blooded is exclusive…like you do. That’s what I just simply said.”

            Ok, so you agree with me obviously. Moving on…

            “Being American is defined by paper, you’re right. The only thing that saves your ass in that argument is the ambiguity with determining what is American/European/Other commonwealths here because identification through bloodline is completely impossible due to their strong global influence (and gene pool mixing) even before modern globalization occurred. Due to that ambiguity, mostly no one in the West can identify dead relatives like you through bloodline so you have something to be proud of.”

            Ok, so you agree with me here as well. Moving on…

            “I think we’re on the same level here….the resentment towards our respected people or the tribe we identify with exist but you endorse the pure blooded thing a little too far. Big deal?”

            My assumption was that you are resentful of Koreans because they do not accept you as one of their own. I don’t resent my tribe so I’m not sure what you mean by “…the resentment towards our respected people or the tribe we identify with”. I harbor no such ill-will against Koreans.

            “Korea can keep their gene pool the way it is and keep their own genes and mutations to themselves for all I care. You’re Korean too so what do I expect? LOL Of course you’re going to preach the same song.”

            Are you insinuating that being Korean entails advocating everything Koreans do lockstep? No that’s obviously not the case. I do, however, unequivocally express support for the preservation of my tribe.

            “You’re replying and defending in arguments and opinion because your people is under scrutiny for something that many other countries have as well. You’re sensitive of the bad things people from other cultures say about your people, that’s normal.”

            Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace. I can understand perfectly why non-Koreans might be misinformed about Korea or the Korean ethos, which is why I take it upon myself to cultivate those who otherwise don’t know any better.

            “We’re just addressing HOW explicitly xenophobic some of your people can get. Sorry for being politically correct? Don’t blow up on some news blog.”

            I respect and understand the right for every tribe to exist. I work for the preservation of my kin, the Korean tribe. I don’t fear other tribes, nor do I hate other tribes so “xenophobia” is not applicable here. You don’t have to live in proximity with other tribes and breed with them to not fear and not hate foreign tribes.

            “And you think YOU’RE NOT smug for preaching and sticking down posters’ throats that being pure Korean is freakin awesome and degrading the posters by telling them “insert words here telling them their argument is flawed therefore are intelligently challenged because they don’t agree with you”?

            Find a quote of me saying “being pure Korean is freakin awesome” and I will concede this point to you. You can’t, can you? I merely said being Korean is an exclusive clique, because it is. Not everyone can call themselves “Korean”. “Being Korean is an exclusive clique” is not a normative statement.

            I said you posses “not a modicum of logical credibility”. Don’t mischaracterize. Does that read “You are intelligently challenged”? Intelligence is much bigger than merely possessing logical credibility. Anyways, this part of the discussion isn’t central so I’ll leave it be.

            “You’re basically saying that we should accept “being Korean” is exclusive since it’s so rare to have a pure blood line. You say you accept the flaws of the Korean society but others can see differently from what you can and do, keep that in mind.”

            No, I am not saying you should accept being Korean because there are few other tribes with pure blood lines – I’m sure plenty exist.

            I’m saying that being Korean is exclusive in virtue of the fact that not everyone is allowed to identify with the Korean tribe BECAUSE they do not posses 100% Korean blood.

            “Accept the flaws of Korean society”? When did I state this? Quote me on this and I’ll concede this point. You seem to make even the most elementary of reading comprehension errors.

            I understand that others can see things differently, but it doesn’t make them right. Being Korean is not subjective. Possessing 100% Korean blood is a necessary condition of being Korean no ifs ands or buts. I can say “Hugh Jackman is a bachelor” and argue ad nauseam, but it wont make the statement true.

            ““Again, Korean tribal exclusivity has nothing to do with tribal superiority.” Okay you tell me this and but why do you seem to treat the former like the latter? It seems to me that you’ve moulded these together but you’re trying to separate it now?”

            You are pulling this charge out of thin air. Show me where I state that the Korean tribe is superior to all other tribes. You can’t, can you?

            “Nationalism and identity is another complicated thing to separate. Who knows or who is allowed to differentiate the two? exclusivity/superiority and nationalism/identity are all greyish areas. It’s not black and white.”

            Nationalism and identity are two related, but different concepts. Okay. Relevance?

            Tribal exclusivity and superiority are two different ideas as well. Your claim that they are hard to differentiate is false. Tribal exclusivity entails exclusive membership to a particular tribe. Tribal superiority entails thinking “My tribe is superior to your tribe.”

            “You said being Korean is an exclusive thing because of the pure blood line (countless times, I might add.) but you’re Korean so of course you’re going to treat it with superiority against other tribes you speak of because you’re part of it. That’s what you sound like. Who wants to be a dirty non pure whatever anyway? Like the rest of the world?”

            I have in no way stated Korean “superiority against other tribes” and I challenge you to find me saying that before making such wild accusations.

            Likewise, find a quote of me saying “Who wants to be a dirty non-pure whatever anyway? Like the rest of the world?” You can’t, can you? You are completely misconstruing my words. Cheap. Real cheap.

            “Cuz being American is exclusive too…in paper of course. People would kill for an American citizenship.”

            Being “Korean” and being “American” are two different kinds of exclusivity. Only people with 100% Korean blood are allowed to call themselves Korean. Anyone can theoretically become American as long as they naturalize. So yes, it may be difficult for non-Americans to naturalize and become American, but not nearly as difficult as being able to identify yourself as “Korean”.

            So yes, I agree with you. In that sense, being American is exclusive as well. I have never denied the fact that non-Korean tribes are exclusive as well so I fail to see why you brought this up.

  • The Enlightened One

    Well Korea Bang is exploding now. Nothing like racism and hate spewing to fill up the blogs eh? Honestly, I want to like Koreans but they TRULY are Xenophobic… and not just 10%…..!!!

    I was teaching at a Korean school here in China and asked them what they liked about China, simple enough question. The response was “NOTHING! They are all dirty and disgusting!” I asked come on, must be something! They said “Cheap food, that’s it!”. This was coming from kids from 8-18, each class… almost the same response.

    VERY XENOPHOBIC, VERY OBNOXIOUS. Probably not all, but much more than 10% BRUCE.

    • Chucky3176

      Sounds like those Korean students were being honest about their opinion of living in China, with no sugar coat added. What do Western expats living in China say about the Chinese? The ones I have heard, were not so pleasant things about Chinese, it was mostly bad mouthing of Chinese. You ask the same question to long time expats in Korea, they’ll say similar not so nice things about Korea. Is that really xenophobia or cultural arrogance?

    • sfgiants

      Maybe it’s because the Korean kids had enough of being called, “bangzi” (derogatory term used by Chinese against Koreans) by them filthy mouth racist Chinese. And/or maybe it’s because the Korean kids had enough of being called thieves, falsely accused of stealing China’s history (Koreans are claiming Confucius was Korean, Koreans are claiming they created Chinese characters, Koreans are claiming the origin of tofu, Koreans are claiming Jeremy Lin is Korean, Koreans are claiming Jesus was Korean, need more example?). All these disgusting lies created by the insecure Chinese to incite anti-Korean sentiment among the Chinese/Taiwanese seems to be working against them now. I can see you’re not so enlightened afterall unenlightened one.

      • The Enlightened One

        Oh how little you know…

        Have you taught in a Korean school? Have you taught in China? I was 100% neutral walking into it and came out seeing the truth of the majority.

        Don’t make excuses or deflect on the point. They are strongly xenophobic and that was ONE of many instances. I have heard many backhanded compliments given to foreigners by Korean students and Korean teachers. Their hate and detest for Chinese is strong and even stronger than other foreigners that strongly dislike the way things go in China.

        Koreans have a difficult adapting because of their xenophobia.

        • Paulie Walnuts

          All the more reason to keep non-Koreans out of Korea and non-Chinese out of China.

        • sfgate

          And you’re not deflecting on the points I made? Read again on my reply to your Korean students (of course it’s possible you’re completely fabricating just like how the Chinese like to fabricate about Koreans). Their hate and detest on Chinese? Laughable! Ask a Mainlander and Taiwanese about Koreans, your likely response would be “bangzi this bangzi that, bangzi stealing our history, the world would be better without bangzis”. Derogatory racist slurs used by the Chinese/Taiwanese when identifying Koreans is all there needs to know on the optimum level of HATE AND DETEST towards Koreans, added to that the disgusting lies they make up to incite more HATE AND DETEST.

          Koreans live all around the world, I think they adapt quite well. Sure there is a level of xenophobia in Korea, but are you saying it’s uniquely Korean? Do a google search on Xenophobia in Japan, China, Argentina if you dare, you’ll be dissapointly surprised The Unenlightened One.

        • biohazard9550

          Fucking cretin

      • acorn

        i am not sure where those “koreans claim this and that (confucius, jesus, chinese characters, etc)” come from…. I remember reading about it being reported through the chinese media, saying that korean government tried to have them registered as “korean heritages” but when you do actual research there was absolutely none so when I tried to trace the original coverage or claims, I found hardly any evidence for that (as for jesus… hehe i have heard many korean claiming to be jesus’s ‘brother’ though, not quite jesus, haha). in fact it is exactly what korean people accuse China of doing (china claiming football, pizza, greco-roman civilisation, buddhism, etc), so I would not be surprised if they were fabricated to stir up nationalistic feelings between the two countries and sell newspaper. The ones who make up those claims on the net (whichever country) are very marginal but they sure are being represented as “majority” often by the other side. let’s not stoop that low :D

  • SlasherX

    Ugh, one thing I’m sick of seeing in this debate is the idea of Western culture as a whole entity. North American and European identities, ideas and values are so different that it is lazy and disingenuous to group them all together. Paulie is quick to espouse the uniqueness of Korean culture and label the dangers of Western culture without even defining the huge difference that exists in Western cultures. Compare the social attitudes of the USA and Norway. Compare the cultural norms and political history of Northern Ireland and Poland. I’m guessing as a Korean/American he is basing all his experiences of Western culture on America. It is a blinkered view to believe that he has full of experience and knowledge of Western culture.
    Casually referring to Muslim troubles in France or the horrors of Nazi Germany with no personal or cultural stake in those nations is hypocritical. To define these as solely multicultural problems is even worse. Just as Paulie says “There are few things more deplorable than non-Koreans speaking on Korean-related issues, if I may be honest.” Well I say there is nothing more deplorable than a non-European speaking on European-related issues in order to lazily prop up his own argument.

    • Paulie Walnuts

      Here’s a working definition of “Western” to remove any ambiguity:

      The term “Western culture” is used very broadly to refer to a heritage of social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, religious beliefs, political systems, and specific artifacts and technologies. Specifically, Western culture may imply: a Biblical-Christian cultural influence in spiritual thinking, customs and either ethic or moral traditions, around Post-Classical Era.
      European cultural influences concerning artistic, musical, folkloric, ethic and oral traditions, whose themes have been further developed by Romanticism.
      A Graeco-Roman Classical and Renaissance cultural influence, concerning artistic, philosophic, literary, and legal themes and traditions, the cultural social effects of migration period and the heritages of Celtic, Germanic, Slavic and other ethnic groups, as well as a tradition of rationalism in various spheres of life, developed by Hellenistic philosophy, Scholasticism, Humanisms, the Scientific Revolution and Enlightenment. The concept of Western culture is generally linked to the classical definition of the Western world. In this definition, Western culture is the set of literary, scientific, political, artistic and philosophical principles that set it apart from other civilizations. Much of this set of traditions and knowledge is collected in the Western canon. The term has come to apply to countries whose history is strongly marked by European immigration or settlement, such as the Americas, and Australasia, and is not restricted to Europe.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world#Western_culture

      Second, I ask you to quote exactly what I said w/r/t “the dangers of Western culture”. I shall respond in kind.

      Yes, Western culture is not homogenous. When you consider the fact that the main exporter of Western culture is, in fact, America, a country with European roots – the other bastion of Western culture – America is an archetypical example of Western civilization. So labeling America as part of Western culture is reasonable.

      Even without resorting to failed examples of multiculturalism in Europe, I could an equally strong case by just referring to examples in America itself. So the absence of European examples of failed multiculturalism doesn’t make my arguments any less robust.

      • SlasherX

        Ah, my apologies Paulie. I actually meant to aim this at sayitlikeitis as he is the one who repeatedly refers to the West again and again as some homogenous bogeyman out to force Korea into it’s way of thinking.

        Anyway, the idea of the Western World is so ill-defined that it is almost impossible to remove ambiguity. Just look at all those factors listed in the Wikipedia article. Religion, nation, tribes, race, philosophy, civilization. The list is seemingly endless. One of the first lines even states “There is no agreed upon definition about what all these nations have in common.” And of course America is the archetypal Western culture because of it’s world dominance. But it is not THE Western culture. And on the flip side how do you feel about Korea being lumped in with Eastern culture?

        Anyway, as a non-European looking in from the outside it is easy to find apparent failed examples of multiculturalism. As you are looking at it from a foreigner’s perspective, it is impossible for you to truly know a European’s experience on this matter. There are so many reasons for the tensions in Europe and they are not all racial. Also, what you don’t see as an outsider are the multitudes of positive examples of multiculturalism. Surprisingly, these don’t make the news or pop up as easy to quote figures.

        As a matter of fact, I couldn’t care less if Korean becomes multicultural or not. If Korean people don’t want to welcome any outsiders then fine. Who are we to tell them otherwise? I actually agree with you on this point. I do however, take issue with the casual pointing to multicultural failures in Europe time and time again with no real context. Europe is so complex because of it’s strong myriad of cultural identities, internal struggles, and legacy of colonialism that it maddens me to see (sorry to say but especially Americans) pointing and saying “look, it doesn’t work in Europe”. They have no insight other than what they have read about. They have never lived it and experience the dynamics of thousands of years of history and culture combining with the modern multicultural world.
        This is why I think you are totally right in your assumption that non-Koreans can never speak with full knowledge on Korean matters. But therefore, please refrain from casually pointing to Europe to back up your claims. By all means speak about your personal experiences with American culture. But until you have lived as a European, please avoid making assumptions about the cultures and the reasons for any tension there.

        Also, I know lots of Europeans who can trace their bloodlines back many generations. This is not something unique to Koreans.

        • Paulie Walnuts

          “Ah, my apologies Paulie. I actually meant to aim this at sayitlikeitis as he is the one who repeatedly refers to the West again and again as some homogenous bogeyman out to force Korea into it’s way of thinking.”

          It certainly is not a homogenous bogeyman, but certain “Western” elements in Korea today are assailing the Korean ethos as we speak, Mr. Sanbon being a case in point. James Turnbull of the Grand Narrative http://thegrandnarrative.com/ is another perfect example of this. It is ironic that the same Koreans who invited these foreigners to Korea – not just “Western” ones – to begin with, are the same ones who are destroying what it fundamentally means to be Korean slowly, bit by bit, and gene by gene via invited foreigners themselves.

          Tribal theory might provide an explanation for this. As tribes often derive their ideological strength and integrity through males, tribal ideological competition occurs when tribes are placed in proximity. In other words, ask yourself the following question, “Who are the foreign males coming to Korea?” There you will find the source of ideological competition.

          The relative lack of Eastern ideological competition from Asian or Southeast Asian countries stems from the lack of Asian and SE Asian males in South Korea marrying Korean women. As a male of the Korean tribe, naturally, I am not threatened by the females of a different tribe, but the males of a different tribe. The presence of “Western” males in South Korea naturally results in tribal ideological – and biological, for that matter – competition that is literally being played out before our very eyes as we speak.

          Whether the Korean ethos survives multiculturalism is anyone’s guess, at this point, really. I fear that too much damage has already been dealt.

          “How do you feel about Korea being lumped in with Eastern culture?”

          To deny this would be to deny the very origins of Korean culture, so I wouldn’t mind this characterization.

          “I think you are totally right in your assumption that non-Koreans can never speak with full knowledge on Korean matters. But therefore, please refrain from casually pointing to Europe to back up your claims.”

          No argument here. As I am not European or of European descent, I will defer to your opinion on this matter. I can still make a robust argument against multiculturalism in Korea by using the U.S. as an example so I’m not particularly concerned with conceding this point to you.

          “I know lots of Europeans who can trace their bloodlines back many generations. This is not something unique to Koreans.”

          No disagreement here. It would be an insult to all Swedish people if I suddenly identified myself as “Swedish”. The various European tribes all have valid claims to their land and I do not challenge this at all.

          • michael b

            Paulie Walnuts wrote:

            “No disagreement here. It would be an insult to all Swedish people if I suddenly identified myself as “Swedish”.

            It would be a stupid thing to say as you were born in America to Korean descendents but it would probably only “insult” Swedes who held the same backward-thinking, racist views as yourself.

            If you were to stay in Sweden, marry a Swedish woman (unlikely given your patter) and have kids then you would be absolutely justified to say “my kids are Swedish”. It would neither be stupid, nor insulting to the vast majority of people there.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “It would be a stupid thing to say as you were born in America to Korean descendents but it would probably only “insult” Swedes who held the same backward-thinking, racist views as yourself.”

            It’s interesting to see how the Swedish conception of citizenship differs from the American one. Any person born in the geographic confines of America is automatically considered American, regardless of whether the mother and father are American.

            There is a very obvious reason for this – it would be inherently contradictory to assert the possession of “American blood”, for no such bloodline exists, save for Native Americans. This is why America is not a tribe defined in terms of blood.

            Here, Sweden is like Korea – and unlike America – in that it does NOT confer automatic citizenship to anyone born within its geographical confines. Clearly Sweden, like Korea, emphasizes blood relations among its people. Or at the very least, it defines Swedish tribal identity in terms of something more than merely having been born in Sweden. Perhaps I am wrong and this is merely my own opinion; I am not Swedish so I profess no intimate knowledge of what it means to be Swedish, nor do I wish to pontificate on it, especially to Swedes. This is in stark contrast to foreigners who come to Korea who impose their conception of “Korean-ness” on Koreans themselves, e.g. Mr. Sanbon and yourself. It is the failure of foreigners to accept the Korean ethos and slander Koreans, i.e. unfounded “racism” allegations when I’ve already rejected the very ontological category of race itself, that will preclude them from being accepted here.

            “If you were to stay in Sweden, marry a Swedish woman (unlikely given your patter) and have kids then you would be absolutely justified to say “my kids are Swedish”. It would neither be stupid, nor insulting to the vast majority of people there.”

            I am sure for every person who feels the same way you do about Swedish tribal identity, I could find someone who doesn’t. Presumably, there are Swedish people who’d say “You are not Swedish, regardless of how long you’ve been in Sweden, married a Swedish woman, and have half-Swedish kids.” I would respond by saying, “Since I am not Swedish myself, I will defer to your opinion” and accept it. I would not try to force my conception of Swedish-ness on Swedes. I would not go around parading my kids as being Swedish. I would not go around telling Swedes what is proper or acceptable for them. I would understand my role in Swedish society as being fundamentally non-Swede, but it wouldn’t offend me and as long as Swedes held no tribal animosity simply because I am not Swedish, it would be all that I’m entitled to.

            Foreigners in Korea hold no such respect for Koreans, and it’s nothing short of foreign arrogance – look in this thread, examples abound.

            You may reply, “Oh, no. Those individuals are wrong about Swedish identity. You should ignore them and assert your Swedish-ness.” Okay, fine. Sweden very well may be a tribe defined in terms of something more than just bloodline, and that’s fine. Good for Swedish people. I have no problem with that.

            However, were Sweden a tribe defined in terms of bloodline, I would never impose my conception of Swedish-ness on Swedes. Korea is just such a tribe defined in terms of bloodline. Foreigners must know their role here. And it doesn’t involve them – or their kids – being magically considered “Korean”. And that’s the bottom line up front.

  • Chucky3176

    Read what Jasmine Lee had to say about all this internet controversy which I happen to think is non-controversy blown up big by the Korean media, just because of some not so flattering comments on the internet.

    http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2012/04/17/2012041701941.html?news_Head1

    It doesn’t seem to have bothered her at all. She says just stay away from the internet and she’s getting all kinds of support from Koreans everywhere.

    Where’s all the racism and xenophobia? Oh yeah, a few comments on the internet, and some not so flattering comments from the opposition party about her education past, used as political purpose. Are you kidding me? That’s a racial backlash against her?

    How many Asian countries last year alone, let in 100,000 new foreigners to work and live in their country, with giving 30,000 foreigners the citizenship, with 100,000 people in the citizenship backlogs? How many Asian countries give extensive new welfare programs for multicultural families only, at the expense of native majority? How many Asian countries are there which are promoting aggressive multiculturalism, and can people like Jasmine Lee become a parliamentarian in countries like China and Japan? South Korea is possibly the most foreign immigrant friendly Asian country today.

    • chucky3176

      It’s now considered “racist”, and “against human rights” for trying to deport illegal immigrants who should all be allowed to stay as they wish. This illegal Filipino union activist says he will wage an anti-Korea action in Philippines if he is ever deported. (that’s a good way to persuade Koreans, by threatening them)

      http://left21.com/article/10793

      And any illegal immigrant in Korea who wants to be politically active should be allowed to do so, according to this Korean paper editorial.

      http://www.hani.co.kr/arti/opinion/column/465539.html

      The fight to deport this man has been ongoing for years now, with human rights activists who says Korea should stop all deportation of all illegals. And the courts have ordered the immigration office to stop the deportation even.

      http://app.yonhapnews.co.kr/YNA/Basic/a … 5085900004

      So now it’s “racist” and it’s “human rights violation” to deport illegal workers.

      Me thinks this racism and human rights charges are thrown around way too often and way too easily.

      So let me ask you people, how many people think it’s racist for China to deport North Korean refugees from China?

      • Paulie Walnuts

        Who are these apologists throwing racist and human-rights accusations out there? They should be tarred, feathered, and deported immediately.

        “And any illegal immigrant in Korea who wants to be politically active should be allowed to do so, according to this Korean paper editorial. The fight to deport this man has been ongoing for years now, with human rights activists who says Korea should stop all deportation of all illegals. And the courts have ordered the immigration office to stop the deportation even. So now it’s “racist” and it’s “human rights violation” to deport illegal workers.”

        As a Korean, this is deeply troubling to me. I can already see the parallels between failed American multiculturalism and Korea’s own burgeoning problems. Blame must also be put on Koreans themselves, let me make that clear right now, for inviting these foreigners in the first place. These illegals will constitute a perpetual underclass and result in disarray, if tribal theory is true. Tribal theory predicts that as the number of foreigners – legal and illegal alike – grows, tribal conflict will necessarily result. Tribal theory, something I wish to develop in my grad school studies here in Korea, is literally being confirmed right before my very eyes and I am sad to say that I do derive some sort of sick satisfaction confirming its validity.

        “How many people think it’s racist for China to deport North Korean refugees from China?”

        Those who say it’s racist for China to deport North Korean refuges are completely delusional. It may be morally reprehensible on a number of grounds, but the charge of racism is invoked far too often, indeed.

        • sayitlikeitis

          I’m going to reply to Brett Sanbon here at the bottom because the comments on this article have become a bit of a clusterfuck. Ok…

          “Nonsense, if a Chinese saw you on the street they would think you are Chinese too. No, can’t argue with blood, but you look Asian. Most Chinese, Japanese, or Koreans cant tell the difference.”

          To put it as diplomatically as possible Brett, all asians do not look the same. Its kind of demeaning for you to imply otherwise. Chinese have a particular look to them, as do Koreans, as do Japanese. Yes, all three are considered racially asian, but in spite of that there are still some phenotypic differences amongst each ethnicity. What kind of person says stuff like you just said? How arrogant can you get? As I understand it you are living in korea and married to a korean chick? Well, what you just said is tantamount to me living in some european country, take germany for example, and marrying a german chick and then me extrapolating from that experience to say that spanish, french, british, germans, etc. all look the same. (Hint, they don’t.) Seriously, what gives man? Why do you speak so confidently about that which you obviously don’t know what you are talking about?

          “Ah, my apologies Paulie. I actually meant to aim this at sayitlikeitis as he is the one who repeatedly refers to the West again and again as some homogenous bogeyman out to force Korea into it’s way of thinking.
          Anyway, the idea of the Western World is so ill-defined that it is almost impossible to remove ambiguity. Just look at all those factors listed in the Wikipedia article. Religion, nation, tribes, race, philosophy, civilization. The list is seemingly endless. One of the first lines even states “There is no agreed upon definition about what all these nations have in common.” And of course America is the archetypal Western culture because of it’s world dominance. But it is not THE Western culture. And on the flip side how do you feel about Korea being lumped in with Eastern culture?”

          -Slasherx, the west actually is fairly homogenous in terms of political thinking, especially with regards to multiculturalism. Every country in the EU, Britain, the United States, Australia, etc. march in near lockstep regarding multiculturalism and “progressive” ideas. Therefore, in this context it is extremely appropriate to view the west as a singular entity. Secondly, western is typically used as a euphenism for “white/european/descended from europe”. That is actually the best way to define what is considered the western world. There’s no need to deconstruct the term, or try to needlessly obscure its meaning. That being said, while there is great diversity in european countries, they are also interrelated with each other and in varying degrees share a common culture. So yes, in many ways you could (accurately) call it the western culture. Likewise, you could accurately lump korea in with eastern culture. Korea, Japan, China, and all the other countries in the region share a common culture to varying degrees, much the same way as many of the countries in europe do. (Actually, it would probably be more accurate to instead say that Korea, Japan, and all the other countries in the region share a common chinese descended culture.)

          -To everyone else, its terrific that you all enjoy korean culture. But I don’t see why you all are so adamant to try to claim it as your own. I have never done what many of you all are attempting, I have never tried to be more british/french/spanish/german/etc. than the british/french/spanish/german/etc. are themselves, nor have I ever seen fit to tell them what is right or wrong with regards to how they view themselves. I don’t think this is a hard concept to grasp, so I don’t see why you all give yourselves license to do this with korean people. Its called respect people, come on.

          • Brett Sanbon

            -Sayitlikeitis (AKA Pauly Wally Hoo Hoo)
            Just as before you are selecting a single piece of what I wrote and twisting it to suit your needs.

            When I wrote “you look Asian…..same”, you liberal politically correct dummy, there was nothing racist about it.

            I have watched tv shows here in Korea where they quizzed Koreans and foreigners by looking at pictures of people and determining if they were from Korea, China, or Japan. Guess what- the foreignres won.

            Pauly froot loops used the excuse if we walked down a Seoul street and asked strangers “who is Korean?”, they would choose him. Duhhh. However that test doesnt always work. Hence my example. If we were walking in Beijing who would they assume is Chinese? Duh again. Saul! If it were Pauly plain Nuts and a Japanese guy walking in Seoul, probably have a tough time with that.

            So you can take your selective reading and shove right up there in the same place as Pauly, as I could probably tell the difference between Asian people more often and more correct than you could. If yiu would care to put this to a test, I would love to try it out. Ive already posted so much personal information on this website, it shouldnt be hard to locate me.

          • sayitlikeitis

            “Just as before you are selecting a single piece of what I wrote and twisting it to suit your needs.”

            -Not really brett, just going by what you wrote:

            “Nonsense, if a Chinese saw you on the street they would think you are Chinese too. No, can’t argue with blood, but you look Asian. Most Chinese, Japanese, or Koreans cant tell the difference.”

            “Pauly froot loops used the excuse if we walked down a Seoul street and asked strangers “who is Korean?”, they would choose him. Duhhh. However that test doesnt always work. Hence my example. If we were walking in Beijing who would they assume is Chinese? Duh again. Saul! If it were Pauly plain Nuts and a Japanese guy walking in Seoul, probably have a tough time with that.”

            -Not really, i have plenty of japanese friends and they have a distinct facial structure that’s different than koreans, same for my chinese friends. As it stands, you accuse me of cherrypicking , but its pretty obvious you are doing the same thing by trying to utilize very particular, specific examples which by no means invalidate the (genetic as well as phenotypic) reality of the korean ethnicity. You know, some women are taller than men, does this invalidate the notion that men on average are taller than women? Same principle applies here, there may very well be some asians that look ethnically ambiguous, but it would be folly to try to extrapolate that as a whole. Why is it so important to you to try to create some sort of pseudo pan-asian racial identity? Do you hate yourself and your own culture/ethnicity so much that you think its necessary to try to take someone elses?

            “When I wrote “you look Asian…..same”, you liberal politically correct dummy, there was nothing racist about it.”
            -This is probably the most entertaining thing you have written thus far. I’m not sure if you realize it or not but everything you have said thus far is an implicit advocation of multiculturalism, globalization, and to some degree denial of the existence, or at least importance of race/ethnicity. These are all liberal talking points, and points such as this underpin the liberal/progressive/leftist zeitgeist of the contemporary west. Let me ask you, how can I be liberal? I am advocating cultural and racial preservation; not just of korea, but of every nation and unique tribe on earth. Politically, that would actually make me right leaning, IE nationalist. Politically, you seem to be transnationalist/globalist; which lies in the left of the political spectrum. Once again, you have been caught talking about that which you know little to nothing about. Also, you may think calling me a liberal politically correct dummy is edgy, or transgressive, but actually if you look in the mirror you will find the true liberal politically correct dummy within; whether you realize it or not you pretty much align with and echo the liberal/globalist zeitgeist to a T. You are a liberal and you don’t even realize it yet.

          • Brett Sanbon

            What happened to my 3rd and 5th paragraphs???!!! Too funny. Bye. Come visit Sanbon or Jongno if you want to talk more. Id be happy to treat you to a cup of coffee and convince you to live in the real world.
            Take a minute and look outside. The cherry blossoms are blossoming. The sun is out. The girls are again wearing a professional, yet minimalistic, wardrobe. The Koreans are marrying foreigners and having half Korean (by blood, full by nationality, citizenship, and law) babies. The horror! The horror!

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “I have watched tv shows here in Korea where they quizzed Koreans and foreigners by looking at pictures of people and determining if they were from Korea, China, or Japan. Guess what- the foreignres won…with that.

            Again, this doesn’t really take away from the fact that the eyeball test is a useful heuristic as it immediately eliminates anyone obviously not Korean. If you can’t even pass that, then you’re pretty far from Korean, I’d say.

            A heuristic analysis is just that – a useful tool in certain situations. Other less obvious situations call for more meticulous methods like family registries to determine the extraction of individuals. Your future children may be half-Korean and even resemble Koreans – and fool people into thinking they are – but a perfunctory glance at their lineage and it’s plainly obvious that they aren’t Korean.

          • sayitlikeitis

            You rebutted none of my points brett or even bothered to address them, seems to me like the reason you want to end the conversation and lapse into some bizarre, off topic reflection of the current weather and state of local fauna is because you too deep down probably realize that your feelings and views rest on a shaky foundation built on sand. As for your quip that I should get outside and live (implying that I have no life, and no friends or whatever) I would like to let you know that in my circle of friends I do know a couple of koreaphiles, however they merely express an appreciation of my culture, they draw the line at trying to call themselves korean. For that, I appreciate it, and I reciprocate the favor as well.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            Sayitlikeitis, it really is amazing how pervasive the American concept of tribal identity is nowadays. It has completely warped the minds and worldview of its adherents. Scary.

          • Brett Sanbon

            Sayit-

            Of course I didn’t rebut your points. I’m finished rebutting. I haven’t once and still don’t ask or demand to be considered Korean.

            Nothing I have written has been taken seriously, other than to turn my words into nothing more than poisonous racist rants.

            Maybe we are just talking “apples and oranges”, but it seems to me that you and P. have been deliberately picking apart everything I write, as if you don’t understand the underlying context. Maybe English is your second language. If so, it is merely miscommunication on our respective sides. P. has no excuse for misunderstanding that much, other than he wants to.

            The problem is the medium by which we try to share our views, the interwebs, in which we just can’t get through to each other.

            I don’t want to take your identity away from you. I don’t want to water down your culture. Shit, I don’t even want to add to your culture. Mostly, I just want to live peacefully here without other foreigners (refer to the first and 2nd type of foreigners I wrote about below) messing up how Koreans see me.

            I didn’t mean you don’t have a life, everything I wrote was a metaphor meaning “grasp reality” (I will too). Embrace it or don’t, reality isn’t going to change because we want it to.

            to P.W.- “Mutt” is a horrible word to call any person. I would recommend you never use it away from the safety of your keyboard.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “I haven’t once and still don’t ask or demand to be considered Korean.”

            Do I really need to spell it out for you? Here is what you have said ITT verbatim:

            “But to foreigners and their Korean families, they are Korean too…I guarantee my in-laws view me as more of a Korean than they would you, and Im 6 foot 4 and white…I am here on an F6 visa. Same thing [as the F-4 visa]. You can be Korean. However, my kids will be too. [Certain foreigners, yourself included presumably] are more deserving of being accepted into Korean society than someone who has, by chance, been born with Korean blood.”

            You claimed your F-6 visa is the same as an F-4. Who are people on the F-6? Foreigners married to Korean nationals. Who are people on the F-4? Koreans (excluding halfbreeds). So while you never explicitly stated “I demand to be considered Korean.”, you asserted that “I am a foreigner married to a Korean national. This is the same thing as being Korean.”

            Gonna try to wriggle yourself out of this one too, Mr. Sanbon? Moving on…

            “Nothing I have written has been taken seriously, other than to turn my words into nothing more than poisonous racist rants.”

            Wrong on all counts. The fact that I have taken time out to write out substantiated, coherent rebuttals to your arguments WITHOUT attacking your character – like calling you a racist, for example *wink wink* – means that I have afforded you nothing but seriousness . As for your accusations of me being “racist”, I could accuse you of being an Asian fetishist all I want. Doesn’t make it true. Likewise, you can accuse me of being racist all you want. Doesn’t make it true. And it definitely isn’t true, considering the fact that you have yet to substantiate your claims of me being a racist. So please, enough with the character assasination.

            “It seems to me that you and P. have been deliberately picking apart everything I write, as if you don’t understand the underlying context. I don’t want to take your identity away from you. I don’t want to water down your culture. Shit, I don’t even want to add to your culture. Mostly, I just want to live peacefully here without other foreigners (refer to the first and 2nd type of foreigners I wrote about below) messing up how Koreans see me.”

            You have claimed that you yourself are Korean (see above) and that your future children will be Korean. This is nothing more than imposing your concept of “Korean-ness” on Koreans. This necessarily despoils the very category of “Korean-ness”; by claiming that you or your future kids are Korean, you are cheapining and warping the very notion of being Korean. This affects me, as I am Korean myself – I am necessarily required to include you and your future children as members of my tribe, which is unconscionable, simply put. So, you are, indeed, taking my identity away from me.

            The other problem is that your future kids, like you say, will be considered Korean citizens. This means they, even though they aren’t Korean, will be able to vote, participate in the political arena, and think of themselves as “Korean”. They will carry this delusion to their graves and as a Korean myself, that is a sad reality indeed. What’s arguably even more troubling than this is the possibility that your offspring will procreate with other Koreans, and so son, fundamentally destroying what it means to be Korean, gene by gene. In so many words, the very act of even procreating with your wife is unequivocally destroying just what it means to be Korean, assuming your descendants procreate with Koreans. Few things are more dangerous about foreigners permanently residing in Korea than this.

            In no way does this mean I think Koreans should express tribal animosity towards you. You, as a foreigner, must know your role in Korean society.

            “to P.W.- “Mutt” is a horrible word to call any person. I would recommend you never use it away from the safety of your keyboard.”

            I will ignore this, as even the president of mutt central (America, if that wasn’t clear enough) himself, Mr. Obama, uses it to refer to himself. I have heard it being used and I have used it in personal circles myself and many mutt Americans are self-proclaimed mutts, so I question your insinuation that the term is pejorative.

          • Brett Sanbon

            F-4, F-6 my main thoughts in saying that they are the same- both require visits to immigration, both can be terminated, both mean that we are guests in Korea (F-4 holders as well), and both can lead to citizenship. I thought the whole Korean blood thing was pretty much self-explanitory. (Just another example of how you have ignored all of the nuances in my written words)

            As I said, “to foreigners” (did I imply myself? maybe you know my mind better than I do) “their Korean families”, which makes it a matter of opinion. Damn, you are good at taking every figurative snippet and making it literal. I also said that the only thing that matters to me is their (my in-laws) acceptance. Also, that tidbit about they consider me more Korean… (figurative) Probably because I apply to that last group of foreigners and I understand, if not, I accept all of the subtleties of Korean culture.

            Never called or asserted you are racist. Must be confusing me with another poster. I was implying myself, in that you turned my words to make them seem as though I was being racist.

            The only reason I am even bothering to pay you any attention, is because I don’t want any other gullible person to believe the trash you are writing about me. Have you ever considered that a person of Asian background could also be called an “Asian fetishist”? Interesting theory, right? Just looked it up (and it was written by an Asian). Google is convenient.

            I never claimed I was Korean (see above) and just because Obama says something about himself, it becomes okay for everyone? You just brought down your entire case of false claims against me with that bit of non-logic. That’s like claiming saying the word “nigger” is okay because black people say it. Try it around blacks. I dare you.

          • Brett Sanbon

            Edit-

            I said that “my inlaws would …consider…….more Korean than you….i accept…..Korean culture. ”

            I want it to be clear that I meant that to imply I could possibly know, understand, and accept more than you. Not that they consider me to be a real Korean. Wanted to clear that up before you write another page on tribes and pure and blah blah blah.

          • Brett Sanbon

            Sorry, my phone keeps cutting out before I can finish.

            Regarding my earlier statement, “more Korean than you”… it is a figure of speech. You are American too, you should know not to take this literally. Yet you do anyways.

            Regarding that statement and my claim that I perhaps know, understand, and accept more about Korean culture than you. Impossible to prove, unless we meet, most likely will never happen. It was meant to be a figurative elbow in your side.

            My grand finale: being the son of a mechanic and sleeping in your car doesn’t mean you will automatically understand the inner-workings of a carburetor, just as being born of a certain parent and moving to that country doesn’t make someone automatically understand the workings of the culture and people. I understand that what I am writing is a little out there, but it doesn’t negate my claim that I could have a better knowledge of Korea. You are also right in that, if someone sleeps in a garage, doesn’t make them a car. I know that just because I live in Korea, it doesn’t make me Korean. Never said it did.

            Fin.

          • Brett Sanbon

            well, maybe I blew it with the car analogy. I also know nothing can make me Korean…. Man, long day of work fried my head.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “F-4, F-6 my main thoughts in saying that they are the same- both require visits to immigration, both can be terminated, both mean that we are guests in Korea (F-4 holders as well), and both can lead to citizenship. I thought the whole Korean blood thing was pretty much self-explanitory. (Just another example of how you have ignored all of the nuances in my written words)”

            Really Mr. Sanbon? You first said the two visas are the same, now you are saying I failed to catch the nuances of the word “same”? You seem to have a real problem with being very loose with your words. This is a very, very bad way to argue.

            By your logic, I would be well justified in saying the E-2 is similar to the F-4 – both also require visits to immigration, both can be terminated, both mean they are guests in Korea, and both can lead to citizenship. But the E-2 and F-4 ARE NOT THE SAME. Neither are the F-4 and F-6. The very reason why these separate classes of visas exist is because they distinguish between different types of foreigners, namely, foreigners married to Korean nationals and people of Korean blood, genius. If the F-4 and F-6 were the “same” anyone who qualified for one would qualify for the other. But this is not the case. The MOST essential part and distinguishing feature of the the F-4 and F-6 is the difference between foreigners married to Korean nationals vs. Koreans with foreign nationality so “same” is not germane to this situation, rather, “similar” is, yet you choose to hide behind ambiguity in terms and, worse, accuse ME of failing to grasp said unnecessary ambiguity. It’s a terrible way to argue. Are you incapable of admitting that you made an error? Because that’s what it seems like to me. Moving on.

            “As I said, “to foreigners” (did I imply myself? maybe you know my mind better than I do) “their Korean families”, which makes it a matter of opinion. Damn, you are good at taking every figurative snippet and making it literal. I also said that the only thing that matters to me is their (my in-laws) acceptance. Also, that tidbit about they consider me more Korean… (figurative) Probably because I apply to that last group of foreigners and I understand, if not, I accept all of the subtleties of Korean culture.”

            Again, talking in a vague, ambiguous way detracts from a clear, cogent debate so stop hiding behind your so-called “figurative language”. If you didn’t want yourself included in “foreigners and their families” you should’ve explicitly stated that you are somehow not part of that group, as you yourself are a foreigner with Korean in-laws. You also should’ve provided a distinction as to why you shouldn’t be included in that group.

            Again, I repeat VERBATIM what you said “My in-laws view me as more of a Korean than they would you.”

            Now you are saying that this was “figurative”. Now you say, “I perhaps know, understand, and accept more about Korean culture than you. It was meant to be a figurative elbow in your side.”

            These are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IDEAS. Your in-laws may hold the opinion that you know more about Korean culture than me. THIS IS NOT EQUAL TO saying “They view me as more of a Korean than you.” ; stop equivocating with respect to the word “Korean”. You are talking about possibly having more knowledge of Korean culture than me, not being more Korean than me. These are two totally different things. If I were you right now, I would stop hiding behind this weak defense of ambiguity and admit that I was wrong. Clearly this is something you are incapable of doing. Some advice: stop being so cryptic. Pay close attention to what you’re saying and state things in a clear, understandable manner. This isn’t poetry class.

            “Never called or asserted you are racist. Must be confusing me with another poster. I was implying myself, in that you turned my words to make them seem as though I was being racist.”

            You are not racist. I have never said you were racist. When you said, “Nothing I have written has been taken seriously, other than to turn my words into nothing more than poisonous racist rants.” I thought you meant “Anything I say is being used by my racist opponents to formulate racist opinions”. Okay, simple misunderstanding. Moving on.

            “The only reason I am even bothering to pay you any attention, is because I don’t want any other gullible person to believe the trash you are writing about me.”

            I have already stated that I never viewed you as racist, so so much for this charge of muckraking. What I HAVE claimed is that you are arrogant and haughty, which you are. Here’s a great example (your words verbatim), “I have met enough ABK’s to know that not all of them are truly deserving of the “Korean” title they use when describing themselves.”

            “Have you ever considered that a person of Asian background could also be called an “Asian fetishist”? Interesting theory, right? Just looked it up (and it was written by an Asian). Google is convenient.”

            You are in no position to judge whether a person is an Asian fetishist or not, no more than you are qualified to judge whether a Korean person is Korean or not. At any rate, this isn’t central to the discussion at hand. Moving on.

            “Just because Obama says something about himself, it becomes okay for everyone? You just brought down your entire case of false claims against me with that bit of non-logic. That’s like claiming saying the word “nigger” is okay because black people say it. Try it around blacks. I dare you.”

            Obama, IN PUBLIC, has used the terms “mutt” and “mongrel.

            http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/11/chewing_over_ob.html
            http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/111611-obama-calls-african-americans-a-mongrel-people-
            http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20239003,00.html

            I am not saying it’s okay to use the terms “mongrel” and “mutt” merely in virtue of the fact that Obama said it, rather these terms are not considered to have the same politically correct (bs, if I may be frank) gravitas as the “n-word”. This is why people are self-proclaimed mutts and refer to themselves as such. This is why I have used it in personal circles. Do you think Obama would use the n-word in public like he did with “mutt” or “mongrel”? Obviously not. That implies a big difference between the two, so I don’t even know why you brought up the comparison. You are claiming that using the word “mutt” is highly offense and non-PC. You, in so many words, are dead wrong.

            “Being born of a certain parent and moving to that country doesn’t make someone automatically understand the workings of the culture and people. I could have a better knowledge of Korea.”

            When did I argue this? Pretty pointless to bring this up.

          • Brett Sanbon

            Paul,

            1. E-2 visa’s cannot lead directly to citizenship. Enough of these games. My main point, because at that time I was more bringing you down to your correct level (Korean-American), was the F-4 and F-6 visas mean that you can stop preaching on behalf of all Koreans everywhere because you are not eligible to do so. You can give an outside perspective, but you choose to label yourself an insider. I am not ignorant to the way Koreans think about foreign-born children to Korean parents- don’t assume I am.

            Maybe there are points that I am wrong on, but there are definitely fallacies in your “facts”.

            Are you truly Korean-American? Were you raised around Americans, or in a tight-nit community of fellow 재미교포’s? You are correct in that I should be clearer what asserting my position on a topic (I attribute this to mostly typing from my phone and not having the patience to try and cut, paste, or delete when I want to change something). I should use clear terminology and vocabulary especially considering this is a site for anyone in the world with an interest in Korea. However, I cannot believe that you, another American, cannot understand the subtleties of jargon and figurative speech. This leads me to assume that you are purposefully disregarding the true meaning of everything I have written from the beginning and use the literal context to support your case… the most frustrating part is that you are really good at it. If my assumptions are wrong, then perhaps I was a little prematurely put on the defensive.

            2. Obama doesn’t speak for me. Obama says “mutt” and “mongrel” because he is of mixed blood and uses it in a light and playful way. He does not use it to describe anyone else but himself. Black people say “nigger” (or nigga), but that in no way gives me or you the right to say it. Just as Obama and your social circle uses “mutt” it gives you no right whatsoever to say it yourself.
            Example: If Ban Ki-moon or MB used a slur against Koreans to describe themselves, would it be okay for me to use it openly? Would it be okay for me to say that “MB said it”? Of course, this is completely hypothetical, but no less damning.
            “Mutt” is the equivalent racial slur of “nigger”, especially given the circumstances. You were comparing pure blood to mixed and you want to convince me that you were doing it without malicious intent? After all that bullshit of “Mr. Sanbon has no right to talk about Korean affairs….” you really want to try to argue why it is okay for you to label people of an impure bloodline? This being said, I am only as wrong IFF you are about me speaking on Korean issues. If you are correct, than so must I be.

            3. Finally, me being arrogant and haughty. What makes you so certain that no Koreans hold the same views as me? Are you really sure that you are qualified to speak on the behalf of 50 million people? How can you know that everything I have written wasn’t fist brought up to me by a Korean national? I pass things as my ideas because it is faster than citing sources, but you shouldn’t be so quick to point a finger.

            Pot: Hi, Mr. Kettle!
            Kettle: Hello there, Mr. Pot!
            Pot: You are black.
            Kettle: …… :(

            I remember someone saying something on this site about a Top 35 university…… Too vague for you? No one would mention it unless they were trying to brag or put someone down. I really wish I could meet you right now and show you this little frame on my wall. Your wide eyes, and your mouth ajar, blank face as if it couldn’t be true. Don’t assume (you implied it. I know. I am American too) your intelligence is highest in any situation. One thing I learned in my years at university; some goddamn humility in that I was fortunate enough to be educated where I was. The internet is a precarious place. You never know who’s out there.

            You see, from the beginning, I had never intended to enter into debate. I was genuinely curious as to what you had written. But from the very first time that I even posted to acknowledge you brought up an interesting topic, you chose how you wished to reply, not answering a simple question of mine, and claiming that some random non-point was “clearly disturbing to [me]“. [Cue Lightbulb] It is all clear to me now! You were looking for a debate from the get-go. I was stupid for even acknowledging your first response to mine. You are a true Chat room Ranger, the best of the best.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “E-2 visa’s cannot lead directly to citizenship. Enough of these games.”

            NO visa leads directly to citizenship. By “directly” I mean, confers automatic naturalization. A person who wants to naturalize must meet certain conditions, namely spending 5 consecutive years in Korea, regardless of which visa you are on.

            Regardless, you obviously agree that your use of the term “same” was erroneous, so let’s move on.

            “My main point was that you can stop preaching on behalf of all Koreans everywhere because you are not eligible to do so. You can give an outside perspective, but you choose to label yourself an insider. I am not ignorant to the way Koreans think about foreign-born children to Korean parents- don’t assume I am.”

            Being Korean is defined as having 100% Korean blood. I am Korean by definition. You are not Korean. The views I espouse are held by the majority of Koreans and that is the way Korean-ness has been defined since South Korea’s inception. My views on Korean-ness fit the majority opinion, and since I am Korean myself, there is no distinction between an “outside perspective” and an “inside perspective”. I am a Korean espousing views on Korean-ness. So is every other Korean who espouses views on Korean-ness. If by “outside perspective” you mean “a Korean with foreign nationality espousing views on Korean-ness” then, yes, you are correct. If by “outside perspective” you mean a “non-Korean espousing views on Korean-ness”, then you are wrong.

            Quite frankly, the fact that you might be aware of what Koreans think about Korean-ness carries no weight in the debate over what being Korean is, as you are not Korean yourself. You may allege that Koreans believe Koreans with foreign nationality aren’t Korean but that is for Koreans to debate, not you. You yourself have admitted that you aren’t Korean so I don’t need to listen to YOU pontificating on Korean-ness.

            “Are you truly Korean-American? Were you raised around Americans, or in a tight-nit community of fellow 재미교포’s?”

            Which one is your definition of “Korean-American” is? Being raised around Koreans with foreign nationality? Or being raised around non-Koreans with American nationality?

            Besides, I have already established that I am Korean, so I’m sure what you’re trying to get at here.

            “You are correct in that I should be clearer what asserting my position on a topic. I should use clear terminology and vocabulary especially considering this is a site for anyone in the world with an interest in Korea.”

            Okay, so practice what you preach.

            “However, I cannot believe that you, another American, cannot understand the subtleties of jargon and figurative speech. This leads me to assume that you are purposefully disregarding the true meaning of everything I have written from the beginning and use the literal context to support your case… the most frustrating part is that you are really good at it. If my assumptions are wrong, then perhaps I was a little prematurely put on the defensive.”

            Figurative speech has its place, but not in a debate where the very concepts in question depend on discernible, unobscured language. The onus is on the writer to provide clear definitions and concepts, just as it is for everyone else participating in this discussion, not the reader to decipher the “true meaning” of your words. In fact, there is nothing more intellectually dishonest than obscuring the “true meaning” of your words under the pretext of “figurative speech”, when simple, easy to understand language could’ve easily avoided any ambiguity to begin with.

            “Obama says “mutt” and “mongrel” because he is of mixed blood and uses it in a light and playful way. He does not use it to describe anyone else but himself. “Mutt” is the equivalent racial slur of “nigger”, especially given the circumstances. You were comparing pure blood to mixed and you want to convince me that you were doing it without malicious intent? After all that bullshit of “Mr. Sanbon has no right to talk about Korean affairs….” you really want to try to argue why it is okay for you to label people of an impure bloodline? This being said, I am only as wrong IFF you are about me speaking on Korean issues. If you are correct, than so must I be.”

            Let’s clear up some confusion, shall we? I shall define the term “mutt” to mean any individual whose blood is of mixed ethnicity. Therefore anyone who is of mixed blood is a mutt. There is no normative claim being made here. You can construe this as a “racial slur” all you want, I do not. Some people take offense at the term, some people do not. No one can argue it’s truth-value for mutts vs. non-mutts,which is all I was referring to. If “mutt” offends you that much, simply replace “mutt” with “a person of mixed blood”. I hope your delicate sensibilities can at least handle that.

            “Finally, me being arrogant and haughty. What makes you so certain that no Koreans hold the same views as me? Are you really sure that you are qualified to speak on the behalf of 50 million people? How can you know that everything I have written wasn’t fist brought up to me by a Korean national? I pass things as my ideas because it is faster than citing sources, but you shouldn’t be so quick to point a finger.”

            Koreans may hold the same views as you w/r/t Koreans with foreign nationality. Some Koreans may not. I never denied some may agree with you, as I acknowledged your coworker’s beliefs. I am certainly infinitely more qualified than you in virtue of my Korean-ness so whether I speak on behalf of 50 million Koreans is besides the point. Really, it doesn’t matter if your views were originally from a Korean’s. I will consider them if they come out of a Korean speaker’s mouth, not yours. I reiterate: that debate is for Koreans to decide, not yours.

            “I remember someone saying something on this site about a Top 35 university…… Too vague for you? No one would mention it unless they were trying to brag or put someone down.”

            Yep, at least I have admitted my arrogance – “Just wanted to toot my own horn there”, while you have done nothing of the sort. You are in denial about yours.

            “I really wish I could meet you right now and show you this little frame on my wall. Your wide eyes, and your mouth ajar, blank face as if it couldn’t be true.”

            *slow clap*

            “Don’t assume your intelligence is highest in any situation.”

            I never have, nor have I ever stated that I am the most intelligent person ITT.

            “You chose how you wished to reply, not answering a simple question of mine, and claiming that some random non-point was “clearly disturbing to [me]“.

            I did not answer it in the initial post, but I did answer it in the subsequent one. And I quote:

            You: “would you choose celebacy over you pre bloodline.”
            Me: “I would, in fact. To argue otherwise would risk real inconsistency and be far too damning.”

  • Regina.

    This is the same country that stole their language and culture from China, their entertainment from Japan, and got their lives saved by Taiwan.

    Koreans, please don’t think your country is any better than the Philippines. Calling it a trash country is pretty funny considering you guys still eat insects and drool over live octopus.

    • Brett Sanbon

      Lol shouldve stuck with the second paragraph alone.

      I would, in normal circumstances, prove you oh so wrong on the first paragraph. But, seeing as we have all these resident Korean experts, I am sure that they will jump on this the first moment they get.

      • Brett Sanbon

        Also I wanted to suggest you read Chucky’s posts from above. He talks about your second paragraph with examples and articles from the news.

    • sayitlikeitis

      -Regina, regarding the phillipines, I don’t have an opinion on it, I have never been there. Speaking only for myself, my issue is not the phillipines, but rather my issue revolves around the ideology of multiculturalism, and globalization. This has nothing to do with who is better or who is worse, rather the true crux of the matter is the right to cultural and racial/ethnic preservation. This is something that I would advocate not only for korea, but also the phillipines as well or anywhere else. Shockingly though, there are people that think it is wrong to want to preserve a nation, and its people; there are people out there who hate diversity, and would like nothing more to see a world where everyone has merged into one race and one culture. I don’t know how you feel about that, but I cherish and enjoy the kaleidoscope of different races, faces, and cultures in this world, and I hope that they will be preserved so that future generations may be able to enjoy them as well. Is there anything wrong with that?

    • Paulie Walnuts

      I would like to, as a Korean, unequivocally disavow any such statements made against Filipinos. All tribes have a right to exist.

      Tribal theory predicts all of this tribal strife to a t, which is a powerful argument against multiculturalism, immigration en masse, and miscegenation in Korea.

    • sayitlikeitis

      so you are proposing soft genocide? the wiping out of all distinct cultures and races? You don’t think they deserve to exist? wow…

  • Brett Sanbon

    My final thoughts on this article and subsequent posts-

    After marriage Ms. Lee gained citizenship in 1998. Therefore she is Korean. Her race is Filipino, but she is still Korean by law.

    As has been pointed out by Chuck, it turns out that this woman’s ethnicity is not the main problem in the eyes of most Koreans. She is part of the NFP. This means that all DUP supporters and members, and especially those hired to dig for dirt, will find any reason or chance they can to put her down. IMO, most of the Korean youth is more likely to support DUP over NFP, therefore on the interwebs you will most likely read comments about people bashing her.

    Another thing about her being elected in. I find it funny that people are surprised she was chosen. From what Korean friends told me, most people don’t even know who they are voting for. They just vote according to the party they have always been affiliated with. One friend told me that some people actually had cast their votes for someone who died before their name could be removed from the ballot. No joke. As stated in previous article by acorn, “you’d think people act out of their private interest rationally but the divergence between long-term and short-term gains are usually such that people just vote out of habit or studied habits in the face of bewildering choices and preferences”.

    When everyone in Korea starts voting, then everyone in Korea can comment on her eligibility. However, with voting in many areas hovering at around 50%, I think that about 50% of Koreans have no right (of course they have the right, but… you know what I mean) to talk about, or comment on what is happening in current politics.

    Finally, to end the debate on Korean nationality, I have only a few comments, most will be opinion. There are many different foreigners from many different countries in Korea. Most of us are legal.
    There are foreigners who use Korea for their personal interests (travel, play, Itaewon) and current needs (job, security, experience…whatever).
    There are those who were stationed here (different from choosing to be here) like many soldiers and expats.
    There are also the foreigners who chose to be here out of desire, not desire to use Korea for selfish reasons, but because this group really wants to invest their own time, money, and life in the land we now call “home”.

    The last group is a group incomparable to other foreigners. It may be easy to label all foreigners as “Shitaewoners”, “Asian Fetishists”, and “South Asian Beggars”. It may be easy to prove that these people will never truly be Korean, by blood or law. But it is also this group of people that have beaten the odds or being casted out and shunned from Korean society. I think that stands for something.

    Foreign born children with 100% Korean blood may be considered Korean by some. Maybe by all. But I have met enough ABK’s to know that not all of them are truly deserving of the “Korean” title they use when describing themselves.

    That last group of foreigners. The ones that have spent countless hours to learn the language, culture, and history. The ones who are enrolled in kumdo classes, gayageum classes, can make different varieties of kimchi, volunteer at children shelters, defend Korea against ignorant foreign friends, and the ones who do it even when Koreans tell them they will always be a foreigner; they are special. In my opinion, they are more deserving of being accepted into Korean society than someone who has, by chance, been born with Korean blood.

    Not open for dialogue, take it or leave it, this is my stance and its not going to change by talking about tribal theory.

    • Paulie Walnuts

      “After marriage Ms. Lee gained citizenship in 1998. Therefore she is Korean. Her race is Filipino, but she is still Korean by law…As has been pointed out by Chuck, it turns out that this woman’s ethnicity is not the main problem in the eyes of most Koreans….50% of Koreans have no right (of course they have the right, but… you know what I mean) to talk about, or comment on what is happening in current politics.”

      I agree with the statement that 50% of Koreans have no right to talk politics. Every Korean has the right to question Ms. Lee’s legitimacy as a politician, due to the fact that she is not Korean. As an American, I would be appalled and disgusted if a Frenchman suddenly went to Congress and started preaching about American politics. I would say that this Frenchman has no business being in Congress, let alone telling me what’s good or not good for Americans and myself. It is the same with Ms. Lee. She is, simply put, ineligible to take the pulpit simply in virtue of the fact that she is not Korean, regardless of her Korean citizenship. Only Koreans unequivocally have the right to tell other Koreans what is good or not good for them and act in the political arena.

      “The last group is a group incomparable to other foreigners. It may be easy to label all foreigners as “Shitaewoners”, “Asian Fetishists”, and “South Asian Beggars”. It may be easy to prove that these people will never truly be Korean, by blood or law. But it is also this group of people that have beaten the odds or being casted out and shunned from Korean society. I think that stands for something.”

      There are marked differences between the groups you just mentioned. The Korean government invites English teachers and soldiers to Korea so no, no “odds were beaten”. Nothing about merely living in Korea as an invited English teacher or mercenary is notable in and of itself.

      “Foreign born children with 100% Korean blood may be considered Korean by some. Maybe by all. But I have met enough ABK’s to know that not all of them are truly deserving of the “Korean” title they use when describing themselves.”

      It is this imperious attitude that you and other foreigners hold that will interminably prevent your – and other foreigners – acceptance in Korean society. This charge is valid against tribes that define themselves in terms of something other than bloodline, like Americans, but not against Koreans. You are in no position to judge or opine on whether an individual is Korean or not. Only Koreans are allowed to do as such. You telling any Korean person that he/she is not “Korean” is haughty and repugnant, just like I would be if I told a Japanese person, “You are not Japanese.”

      “That last group of foreigners. The ones that have spent countless hours to learn the language, culture, and history. The ones who are enrolled in kumdo classes, gayageum classes, can make different varieties of kimchi, volunteer at children shelters, defend Korea against ignorant foreign friends, and the ones who do it even when Koreans tell them they will always be a foreigner; they are special.”

      These are all honorable traits that all foreigners should possess, I agree. History, sadly, paints a very different picture.

      “In my opinion, they are more deserving of being accepted into Korean society than someone who has, by chance, been born with Korean blood.”

      Again, you are in no position to judge whether an individual is Korean or not, nor are you in any position to judge the criteria by which such individuals are able to be deemed Korean.

      • http://theunlikelyexpat.blogspot.com/ durham stevens

        Paulie you’re missing the point. I’m not just calling you racist as some kind of lazy insult – I’m saying that your comments are literally some of the most racist garbage I have ever read. Have you noticed that no one except racist wackjobs throws around terms like “racial purity” and “Fatherland?” Those are inherently offensive ideas.

        We live in a global world. Multiculturalism is reality. It fails sometimes, like in places full of racism and run by conservatives. It seems to be working well in Canada, among other places. You sound like a dinosaur. The alternative to embracing diversity is becoming North Korea, as someone pointed out above.

        I sincerely hope that you made up all this wild theory on your own, rather than having learned it from proud ancestors. Attitudes like yours are a shameful embarrassment to Korean culture – and a prime example of why so many Westerners see parts of it as backwards and disturbing.

        • Paulie Walnuts

          You have the logic of a 5 year old, no offense. Oh, where to begin.

          First of all, you are conflating race for tribe. None of my claims have been racial; find a quote of me asserting any race’s purity. I have, in fact, denied the very existence of the ontological category of race, contrary to your strawman.

          Second, let’s look at the definition of “racist”, since you seem to throw it out there every chance you get:

          **A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.**

          First, of all, the concept of “race” is inherently flawed. So I reject the premise behind racial ideology from the get go. Second, I have never said “The Asian race is superior to ___ race.”, nor have I said “The Korean tribe is superior to ___ tribe.”

          So much for your charge of racism.

          Now let’s look at the term, “fatherland”:
          **the land of one’s ancestors.**

          Yes, that screams RACIST!!! There is something mysteriously inherently offense about referring to “the land of one’s ancestors”.

          “Multiculturalism is reality. It fails sometimes, like in places full of racism and run by conservatives. It seems to be working well in Canada, among other places. You sound like a dinosaur. The alternative to embracing diversity is becoming North Korea, as someone pointed out above.”

          No, it’s not. Multiculturalism is a bitter reality for certain countries, not for others. I find it puzzling that you assert it works well in Canada when I can name countless examples of it failing.

          1. http://www.japanesecanadianhistory.net/GuideExcerptsForSocialStudies11.pdf
          2. A history of slavery.
          3. http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/634117

          Food for thought: “Visible minorities identified themselves much more strongly by their ethnic origin through the second, third and fourth generations. While 65 per cent of recent black immigrants, 70 per cent of South Asians and 52 per cent of Chinese felt they belonged in Canada, those numbers dropped to 37 per cent, 50 per cent and 44 per cent in the second generation. A third of Chinese, South Asians, Filipino and Southeast Asians reported discrimination; half of blacks did and 40 per cent of Koreans and Japanese did. In fact, a schoolyard fight in Keswick that made national news involved a Korean boy retaliating for a racial slur. Discrimination was most common in applying for jobs and at work; a store, bank or restaurant were the next most frequent. “We need to address these feelings of isolation,” said Reitz. “Among minorities born in Canada, blacks have the lowest sense of belonging, the lowest level of trust in others and the weakest sense of Canadian identity. They are the least likely to vote,” Reitz and Ryerson University assistant professor Rupa Banerjee wrote in the book Multiculturalism and Social Cohesion. “Among recent immigrants, blacks have high levels of volunteers but among the second generation this has disappeared.”

          4. http://www.lfpress.com/news/canada/2012/03/25/19546351.html

          I could go on, but you get the point.

          Racism is alive and very well up there, it seems. Canada is a nation built on the genocide of Native Americans, just like America. Is Korea? “Multiculturalism” is not without a sense of irony, it seems.

          It has failed miserably in the States, the ultimate proving ground for “multiculturalism”, so it has failed for all intents and purposes. You seem to be threatened by the fact that some tribes wish to preserve their character. To this I say, don’t be.

          North Korea? Nice strawman and slippery slope fallacy. Cultural transmission need not require inter-tribal procreation or even the presence of foreign tribes. I am a conduit of American culture here in Korea, even though my blood is Korean. A Korean-Canadian, is a conduit of Canadian culture in Korea, even though his blood is Korean. Nothing is lost, and any cultural qualia that might’ve been doesn’t justify the loss of tribal harmony. There is a difference between completely sealing off a countries borders and allowing for controlled immigration. So no, South Korea wouldn’t become like North Korea if it rejected immigration en masse.

          Just as I have said to Mr. Sanbon, if you yourself aren’t Korean, you are in no position to pontificate on Korea-related issues. Even if Westerners construe parts of Korea as “backwards and disturbing”, the charge can be leveled equally in force to the West, so rest assured, Koreans wont be losing any sleep over this anytime soon.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            EDIT – I meant to say “false dichotomy”, not “slippery slope”

          • Sancho

            I don’t even have time to go over Paulie Walnut’s rehashing of fairly familiar Korean race and nationality dialogue. Race is definitely interwoven withe Korean identity. Obviously Koreans have experienced periods of race mixing in the past 5000 years though perhaps not as much as some other nations. To deny this is silly. I meet Koreans who have brown hair and freckles on white skin and Koreans with curly hair who swear they are pure raced. Now it has been fairly well documented that Korea really has taken on this race and pure race ideology from nationalist Japan. North Korea has gone way overboard with it and indeed the ideology unites the people in supporting a failed state due to the overwhelming desire to stay pure above all else. I find it amusing that Paulie thinks Koreans have a real choice in the matter regarding multiculturalism. American and it’s allies freed Korea from the Japanese. In return the country was opened up to the world and gained wealth due to hard work and favorable policies and donations mostly from the West. Korea, was poor throughout most of it’s history and to refused multiculturalism is to become poor again. The choice is between stubborn notions of pure race or being poor. Hmm. Closed Korea was pure but cutoff from the world and backward due to this. This is not a favorable option to return to. I do believe that multiculturalism is not an easy thing but Korea has benefitted greatly from its implementation. Problems in Germany, England, and France are problems of rich countries having to deal with poor countries migration. Korea is not yet rich and many of the posters on this board are citizens of far wealthier countries than Korea. Yes, Korea does want these people, and their economic connections to their homelands. To sum things up, the world is changing quickly. Japan is a great example of a country that has failed to adapt to globalization and clung to its race ideologies. Singapore and Hong Kong are good examples of open multicultural economic and cultural successes. Though pasts may differ, the road to the future is quite clear if a country wants to be a success. And no, Gyopos are not Korean. They are American. My parents are English and my geneology is English for hundreds and perhaps thousands of years. I was born in Canada. I am Canadian and not English. One more thing, in 1000 years if humans are fortunate to still be here, we will be incredibly mixed and race purity and racism will be seen as astoundingly backward. Korea has been through too much to be hampered by these kinds of ideologies. Its greatest strength has been it’s ability to adapt. People like Paulie will not hep this. The next Steve Jobs will not be born of this. Its 2012, lets perserve the best of Korea but move onwards and yes this means that Korea will change its culture and race and newer and dare I say it more impressive culture can emerge.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “My parents are English and my geneology is English for hundreds and perhaps thousands of years. I was born in Canada. I am Canadian and not English.”

            Good to know your opinions are, quite frankly, worthless when it comes to Korea-related issues. You, as a self-identified Canadian are allowed to speak authoritatively on Canadian and perhaps English identity. You are in no position whatsoever to speak on Korean identity. I genuinely wonder how so many foreigners can be so deluded, it really is fascinating.

            “I don’t even have time to go over Paulie Walnut’s rehashing of fairly familiar Korean race and nationality dialogue. Race is definitely interwoven withe Korean identity.”

            You have elementary reading comprehension issues. I have categorically rejected the notion of race – “Race is indeed a social construct. Which is why Nazi claims of “white purity” were so laughable. The Nazis were looking to purify their race. This is true. I’ve already pointed out that their efforts were doomed from the start, as Nazi Germany was hardly close to being 100% “Aryan”. Any claims about “white purity” are completely contradictory, laughable, and easily dismissible to boot. If they are supremacist, well that’s even worse; no “race” is better than any other.” – yet you continue to completely misrepresent my position to make it easier to argue against it. Nice strawman, buddy. Stop conflating race for tribe.

            “Obviously Koreans have experienced periods of race mixing in the past 5000 years though perhaps not as much as some other nations. To deny this is silly.”

            I have already acknowledged that Korea has been invaded by other tribes throughout its history – “My grandparents lived under Japanese occupation….foreigners have not had the best intentions when dealing with the Korean people. Exploitation, colonialism, etc. has been common to both Asian and Western dealings.”

            I have also said this is completely different from countries like America, where the populous are foreigners themselves, multicultural policies are the norm, and the country itself is built on the genocide of indigenous populations. To argue that a tribe like Korea is anywhere even near America on the mutt spectrum is just plain dishonest.

            “I meet Koreans who have brown hair and freckles on white skin and Koreans with curly hair who swear they are pure raced.”

            Exceptions do not prove the rule. Besides, random mutations are a natural part of the evolution of tribes so your causal explanation is only partially valid.

            “Now it has been fairly well documented that Korea really has taken on this race and pure race ideology from nationalist Japan.”

            The CIA factbook simply states South Korea’s population as being homogeneous. How did they determine that? Did they say “Koreans claim that they are a pure tribe so we should blindly believe them.” No, they looked at the makeup of the Korean population and made that determination because Korea is indeed homogeneous.

            You can think of “pureness” as a spectrum, with mutt tribes on one end, and de facto pure tribes on the other. An example of a mutt tribe would be Americans. An example of a pure tribe would be Koreans. I’ve already acknowledged numerous times that Korea has been invaded and therefore contains non-Korean blood, obviously. There is a difference between this and a tribe literally composed of immigrants – of various tribes themselves – and mutt offspring, like Americans. Americans literally wiped out/interbred with an entire mega-tribe of indigenous people in the process of establishing their own. Korea has no such history. Second, it is plainly clear that higher genotypic variation exists among the American tribe vs. the Korean tribe. Higher genotypic variation = higher phenotypic variation. This is true for America. Not true for Korea. Why? Because Korea is homogeneous, this explains why there is so little phenotypic variation among Koreans. Thus, it reasonable to say Americans are not pure, at least in this sense. Conversely, it is reasonable to say Koreans are pure. There is, however – contrary to your insistence – no such thing as a “Korean race”.

            Every tribe defines itself in different ways. Korea just happens to be a tribe that defines itself in terms of bloodline, so where exactly they might’ve gotten the idea to define themselves in terms of bloodline is a moot point.

            “North Korea has gone way overboard with it and indeed the ideology unites the people in supporting a failed state due to the overwhelming desire to stay pure above all else.”

            False dichotomy. You are assuming that JUST BECAUSE there might not be ANY foreigners in South Korea, it will NECESSARILY end up like North Korea. This is silly. North Korea and ancient hermetic Korea’s mistakes are/were the complete sealing off of new ideas and prevention of Koreans from traveling to and from the country. You are assuming that the presence of foreigners a necessary condition of cultural/new idea transmission. This is dead false. And it certainly doesn’t require foreigners staying long term or inter-tribal procreation. I am a conduit of American culture and ideas even though my blood is 100% pure Korean. So no, South Korea wouldn’t end up like North Korea if it took steps to reduce immigration and tightened up nationality laws.

            “I find it amusing that Paulie thinks Koreans have a real choice in the matter regarding multiculturalism.”

            This is foreign/colonialist arrogance, pure and simple. Every tribe has the right to survive and determine its own conditions of membership. Your haughtiness is disgusting.

            “American and it’s allies freed Korea from the Japanese.”

            When the Japanese invaded Korea in 1910, did America come to Korea’s aid? No. America only assisted Koreans in gaining their independence when it itself was attacked by the Japanese and entered WW2, so don’t give me this rubbish about noble American intentions. Let’s analyze why this was the case. Tribes naturally primarily act in their own interests only. Korea’s and America’s happened to converge at that juncture, which is why America assisted Korea in gaining independence ONLY AFTER it was attacked by the Japanese.

            “In return the country was opened up to the world and gained wealth due to hard work and favorable policies and donations mostly from the West. Korea, was poor throughout most of it’s history and to refused multiculturalism is to become poor again.”

            It also opened it up to the slow destruction of the Korean tribe, gene by gene, foreign military dumping toxic chemicals in the water, foreigners raping, mutilating, and taking advantage of Korean women, U.S. military soldiers running over schoolgirls, and other atrocities too numerous to count. Multiculturalism comes with a price, contrary to your misleading rosy depiction. Again, enough with the false dichotomy. Simply rejecting multiculturalism does not necessitate poverty. Such thin arguments you’re putting forth here. Tsk tsk.

            “The choice is between stubborn notions of pure race or being poor. Hmm. Closed Korea was pure but cutoff from the world and backward due to this. This is not a favorable option to return to.”

            Wrong on the charge of “notion of pure race” and equally mistaken false dichotomy.

            “I do believe that multiculturalism is not an easy thing but Korea has benefitted greatly from its implementation.”

            I just mentioned a substantial number of problems it has brought to Korea, so this is merely your own opinion.

            ” Korea is not yet rich”

            Cool. Assertions without any facts to back this claim.

            “…and many of the posters on this board are citizens of far wealthier countries than Korea. Yes, Korea does want these people, and their economic connections to their homelands.”

            What are you measuring a countries “wealth” by? GDP? What is the relevance of Koreabang posters who are citizens of countries that have a high GDP to your argument? In what ways does Korea want the economic connections of foreigners to their homelands?

            Some Koreans want mercenaries to provide them security. Not for their “economic connections” to their home countries. Some Koreans want English teachers for their English abilities, not because they are purveyors of FDI.

            You may say, “Korea wants individuals who make an investment of over $500,000 in Korea”. Okay, what percentage of foreigners in Korea fit that bill? A miniscule percentage. Let that miniscule percentage do business here and get rid of the chaff. That would mean getting rid of 95+% of foreigners in Korea.

            “Japan is a great example of a country that has failed to adapt to globalization and clung to its race ideologies.”

            Globalization and multiculturalism are two related, but separated ideas. Don’t conflate one for the other.

            Ironic that individuals walking around alone in Tokyo at 3 AM are infinitely safer than individuals walking around alone at 3AM in certain parts of DC, LA, or NY. Yep, multiculturalism should be embraced blindly by every tribe!

            “Singapore and Hong Kong are good examples of open multicultural economic and cultural successes. Though pasts may differ, the road to the future is quite clear if a country wants to be a success.”

            And both are countries that were under the control of foreign tribes, namely the British – or should I say foreigners who have no right to be in Singapore and HK in the first place. Perhaps I am wrong, but there is no doubt that the British tribe was engaging in nothing but colonialism at the time and they have no claim to the lands so many British and British descendants inhabit today in both Singapore and HK. The whole “ALL TRIBES SHOULD EMBRACE GLOBALIZATION/MULTICULTURALISM/________ BECAUSE OF THE ALLEGED ECONOMIC BENEFITS/______” is a perfect example of imperialist, colonialist, and racist attitudes you so vehemently disavow.

            Korea, is by all economic standards, equal to the most advanced nations. It has achieved this WITHOUT the supplanting of the native population by foreigners. So no, your multiculturalism argument falls flat on its face.

            “And no, Gyopos are not Korean. They are American.”

            Cool, another disdainful foreigner imposing his foreign values on Koreans. LOL@ these words coming from your mouth, just lol.

            “One more thing, in 1000 years if humans are fortunate to still be here, we will be incredibly mixed and race purity and racism will be seen as astoundingly backward.”

            So you’re a soothsayer now?

            “Korea has been through too much to be hampered by these kinds of ideologies. Its greatest strength has been it’s ability to adapt. People like Paulie will not hep this. The next Steve Jobs will not be born of this. Its 2012, lets perserve the best of Korea but move onwards and yes this means that Korea will change its culture and race and newer and dare I say it more impressive culture can emerge.”

            The future of Korea is for Koreans to determine. Not you, or Mr. Sanbon, or any other foreigner. Period.

    • sayitlikeitis

      -Brett, I appreciate that you appreciate korea so much; but at the end of the day what you are trying to ask for is unrealistic, and selfish. I say unrealistic because you have tunnel vision with regards to what constitutes nationality; you honestly believe its just about culture, however this is a very euro/western centric point of view. I’d say the majority of non-western nations in the world feel that nationality/tribal identity is essentially synonymous with ethnicity. I say it is selfish because it appears to me that you wish to deconstruct korean identity for the sole purpose that you yourself will be fully accepted into korean society, regardless of how such efforts at deconstructing korean identity affects koreans as a whole. The right of a nation, or a group of people supercedes that of the individual IMO.

      “That last group of foreigners. The ones that have spent countless hours to learn the language, culture, and history. The ones who are enrolled in kumdo classes, gayageum classes, can make different varieties of kimchi, volunteer at children shelters, defend Korea against ignorant foreign friends, and the ones who do it even when Koreans tell them they will always be a foreigner; they are special. In my opinion, they are more deserving of being accepted into Korean society than someone who has, by chance, been born with Korean blood.”

      I feel like maybe during the course of this debate its a possibility we may be talking apples and oranges. Essentially, I am stating that with regards to being a korean, it is important to defend the precise semantics of what constitutes a korean and to avoid deconstruction of the type which has occurred in european countries where for example, a person from korea could be born in germany and subsequently called a german. (obviously this is incorrect) The reason it is important to clearly define ethnic distinctions like this is in order to have a ready made bulwark against would be multicultural (mass immigration) policies. Therefore, I am not just defending the meaning of “korean” in order to be a mean person or to be “exclusive”, rather I am defending the meaning of the word korean so that there is a proper rhetorical framework available in which to fight against multiculturalism with. In a nutshell, I don’t care if you live in korea or not, I hope you enjoy it, and I hope society embraces you, thats perfectly fine; what I am against is masses upon masses of non koreans coming into the country and permanently residing there (via multicultural policies). So essentially I am telling you to enjoy living in korea, but also I am telling you that I think people such as yourself should be a numerical minority in korea. Which I believe is a perfectly reasonable stance. As for the last part of your paragraph, I still take qualm with your views about who should or who shouldn’t be accepted into korean society. You are thinking more in terms of what should be according to you, instead of what actually is according to the will of the koreans themselves. Don’t be like that, koreans will be much more willing to accept you if you first accept that you yourself are a foreigner and will always be considered one, paradoxically, once you come to peace with that fact; koreans will probably come to accept you more readily as their own.

      • Sancho

        -Wait up wait up. I’m not allowed to speak on Korean race identity because I am not Korean? That is so ridiculous. Of course I can have a viewpoint and write about in fact on other cultures. In fact in fields such as anthropology its is almost universally accepted and advantageous in many ways. Lets tell Jared Diamond and Richard Dawkins they can’t have opinions on other cultures. Absolutely ridiculous.
        Again your American, not Korean. I am not an expert on English identity just as you are not on Korean identity. These are words I have heard time and time again. I have also been welcomed as a member of Korean society to a degree which is increasing. It’s 2012 and tribal mentality and seperation is not helpful. Perhaps it was as hunter gatherers but the ship has sailed. Again 2012. Welcome.
        Globalization is interwoven with multiculturalism. All truly Global cities are multicultural cities. Korea has achieved a great deal without ( a large percentage) of foreigners. Perhaps this could go on. The birth rate is too low and for economic growth you need more people. There is no choice but to bring in immigration really. Most importantly though, and maybe you didn’t get the gist of what I wrote before, in this new economy fresh ideas by globalized citizens and people from different cultures are key. your outdated thinking style betrays you. I suggest reading Richard Florida and the creative class to gain a better understanding of how a multicultural city one of the key essential elements for modern dynamic economy. Half of silicon valley are immigrants. Try and think of them as valuable resources. You are an immigrant despite what you think. Not of much value though if you dot have a progressive nature as that is what the country is looking for.
        To compete in the future world countries will be competing for people. America has been getting the best of the best for a long time. That is the major reason it is a world leader.
        -”White purity is laughable”. I didn’t say it wasn’t. So is Asian purity and Korean purity to boot.
        -All nations have selfish intentions. So what? It doesn’t change the fact that Korea has benefitted from American occupation on the whole. To deny this is a lie. America has also benefitted from it’s occupation of Korea. Korea on the whole would never want Americans nor American money to leave. Maybe just you do as you are finding respite here, I’m assuming due to some earlier rejection in America.
        - All genes are from Africa. if we want to really speak about it at the most basic level. It’s totally irrelevant. So your genes have been concentrated in Korea for a long period of time. it doesn’t matter. Things change. Do you find change intimidating and hard to deal with?
        - Ask Singapore and Hong Kong how they feel about the English. Anglophiles are common there. They have done more good than bad.
        - Korea already has the economic traditions of Europe here. Capitalism is European and so is democracy. It is now part of global culture. They have been positive overall. Ahh the beauties of globalization which you reject. And by the way globalization is not a new phenomenon. It has been going on for 1000s of years. Those that were slower to adapt were taken advantage of like Korea. So I would suggest that is a great reason to adapt to prevent that happening again. Again multiculturalism goes hand in hand with globalization. Get ready for more foreigners to come in.
        - Korea is doing well and will continue to do better. I am measuring the wealth of countries by the GDP per capita. I wouldn’t consider Korea rich, though some may. It will be rich soon I guess.
        - Your comparison of American and Japanese crime rates is stupid. Canada is now one of the most safest countries on earth. It is a melting pot.
        - I’m married to a Korean. I will be a Korean citizen in a few years. I have a business in Korea that is three years old and growing. It is a business in arts and culture that is thriving because despite what you say the vast majority of Koreans are intensely interested in global culture and participating in it. This includes art, business, and to your horror, sex and making ‘mutts’. And I do sense the disdain in your use of that word. your morality is silly. I can just see you seething with anger as a mixed race couple walks by. In short I think your assertions are invalid because i know I offer this country more than your close-mindedness could ever. You are the clothes Korea is trying to throw away. I am part of the new Korea. My best friend who is half Korean and Half English is part of the new Korea and my kids are part of the new Korea. We will make this country stronger.

        • Paulie Walnuts

          “I’m not allowed to speak on Korean race identity because I am not Korean? That is so ridiculous. Of course I can have a viewpoint and write about in fact on other cultures.”

          You may have a viewpoint and write about other cultures. This is different from imposing your conception of a tribe’s identity on a tribe itself, which is exactly what you’re doing. I can critique French foreign policy,etc. but I would be gravely mistaken to say “What it means to be a French person is to _________”, which is exactly what you are doing to members of my tribe. Just as no one should take me seriously if I say things like “What it means to be a French person is to ______” or “French people should _________”, or “It is good for French people if they _______” or “It is in the interest of French people to __________”, no Korean should take your claims about Korean identity or Korea seriously.

          “In fact in fields such as anthropology its is almost universally accepted and advantageous in many ways. Lets tell Jared Diamond and Richard Dawkins they can’t have opinions on other cultures. Absolutely ridiculous.”

          Members of a tribe cannot magically redefine what it means to be a member of a different tribe. Members of a tribe are allowed to define conditions of membership of their own tribe, and no others. Anthropology is a descriptive, not a prescriptive pursuit, genius. Find me a quote of Diamond or Dawkins redefining the terms of tribal membership of any not their own. Can’t, can you?

          “Again your American, not Korean.”

          Your opinion on my Koreanness is about as valuable as Enron stock.

          “I am not an expert on English identity just as you are not on Korean identity.”

          Find me quote of me saying that “I am an expert on Korean identity.” and I shall concede this point.

          “I have also been welcomed as a member of Korean society to a degree which is increasing.”

          Good for you. Too bad you will never be able to call yourself “Korean”.

          “It’s 2012 and tribal mentality and seperation is not helpful. Perhaps it was as hunter gatherers but the ship has sailed. Again 2012. Welcome.”

          You are entitled to this opinion. Ironic that some of the biggest proponents of tribal separation are from the most multicultural countries in the world today, in 2012. I can guarantee you that if multiculturalism worked, everyone from multicultural countries would be saying the very things you are saying now. Guess that’s not the case.

          “Globalization is interwoven with multiculturalism. All truly Global cities are multicultural cities. Korea has achieved a great deal without ( a large percentage) of foreigners. Perhaps this could go on.”

          And the extent to which globalization and multiculturalism affects Korea is up to Koreans to decide. It would be a grave mistake for Koreans to ever give people like you a say in their future.

          “The birth rate is too low and for economic growth you need more people. There is no choice but to bring in immigration really.”

          There is a difference between haphazardly bringing in foreigners en masse and a controlled ,limited inflow of immigrants. The preservation of the Korean tribe should be the overarching principle and this means keeping the number of foreigners like you to an extreme numerical minority.

          “This new economy fresh ideas by globalized citizens and people from different cultures are key. your outdated thinking style betrays you. I suggest reading Richard Florida and the creative class to gain a better understanding of how a multicultural city one of the key essential elements for modern dynamic economy. Half of silicon valley are immigrants. Try and think of them as valuable resources.”

          You are alleging that I am American. Let us assume, for the purposes of this argument, that you are true. I AM, in fact, 100% unequivocally bona fide American. I am then also an immigrant in Korea, as you say. Okay. In virtue of my immigrant-ness I carry all the benefits you are alleging ITT. Excellent, because then it possible for Korea to accept only “immigrants” of the same blood than immigrants who are not. After all, Korea would reap all the benefits of a multi-cultural, globalized society even though everyone would be of Korean blood. Mr. Sancho, you are logically committed to this and I can’t wait to see how you gerrymander yourself out of this one.

          “You are an immigrant despite what you think. Not of much value though if you dot have a progressive nature as that is what the country is looking for.”

          Haha, it really is cute hearing a foreigner pontificate on what is good for Korea.

          “To compete in the future world countries will be competing for people.”

          Tribes will be competing for the people THEY determine to compete for. Not for members of tribes to condescendingly and paternalistically determine who other tribes should compete for.

          “America has been getting the best of the best for a long time. That is the major reason it is a world leader.”

          Not only is it amusing to hear you pontificate on Koreans as a Korean, but it is equally if not more ludicrous to hear you pontificate on America. Interesting assertions, now let’s see what the data has to say about this:

          http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-innovations/we-need-to-stop-americas-brain-drain/2011/09/14/gIQAHOuJLL_story.html

          “In 1980, when I came to the United States to study, this was the only land of opportunity for skilled immigrants like me. It took less than 18 months for me to get a permanent resident visa, and I became a citizen as soon as I became eligible five years later. I came here to study, but ended up founding two technology companies, which employed hundreds of Americans. Later in life, I decided to give back to America by becoming an academic. If I was arriving today, I would not have taken the same path. Like the students from India and China that I teach, I would have looked at the bigger opportunities back home after I graduated. And even if I wanted to make America my home, I wouldn’t have had the choice: The waiting time for permanent resident visas for educated workers from India is now 70 years, according to National Foundation for American Policy. For the past six years, I have been researching the contribution of skilled immigrants to U.S. competitiveness. After realizing how fast the tide was turning, I have been raising the alarm that America is experiencing its first ever brain drain. I will present to committee members three main points: First, the world’s best and brightest are not begging to be let into the United States anymore. Second, the U.S. no longer possesses the advantage in entrepreneurship that some believe it does.”

          http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/international-business/Reverse-brain-drain-For-many-immigrants-children-American-dream-lies-in-India-China/articleshow/12699969.cms

          “Highly educated children of immigrants to the United States are uprooting themselves and moving to their ancestral countries. They are embracing homelands that their parents once spurned but that are now economic powers. Some, like Mr. Kapadia, had arrived in the United States as young children, becoming citizens, while others were born in the United States to immigrant parents. For generations, the world’s less-developed countries have suffered so-called brain drain – the flight of many of their best and brightest to the West. That has not stopped, but now a reverse flow has begun, particularly to countries like China and India and, to a lesser extent, Brazil and Russia.

          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2070893/Brain-drain-reverse-6-3-MILLION-Americans-counting-live-work-overseas.html

          “6.3 MILLION U.S. citizens now live and work overseas, no wonder the economy’s on its knees. [The] Number of Americans aged 25-34 living abroad increased from 1% to 5.1% in two years. 40% of Americans aged 18-24 express interest in working abroad, up 15% from 2009. According to a survey by marketing consultants America Wave, the percentage of Americans aged 25 to 34 actively planning to relocate outside the U.S. has quintupled in just two years, from less than one per cent to 5.1per cent. Younger Americans seem even keener to look abroad, with 40 per cent of those 18-24 expressing interest in foreign relocation, which is up from 15 per cent two years ago.

          It is clear that America is now experiencing reverse brain drain – foreigners in America come to study, then leave and go back to their home countries. What’s the point of getting the best if you can’t keep them? So much for that claim. Now, about America’s status as a world leader. There are a million things wrong about that but let’s start with the obvious decline in American economic dominance. Gonna deny this? I can pull up the numbers, if you wish. How about the lack of moral credibility in the eyes of much of the world? How about its innumerable internal failures. Are these indicative, as you say, of America’s status as a “world leader”? America is now one of many declining empires desperately clinging onto any vestige of ascendancy, while the rest of the world is catching up and will exceed. Herein lies the irony, the very strengths – multiculturalism included – that America so proudly claims and imposes on other tribes is now partially the reason for its decline.

          “-”White purity is laughable”. I didn’t say it wasn’t. So is Asian purity and Korean purity to boot.”

          Stop conflating race for tribe. You argue that the Korean tribe is not pure. I have already explicated the sense in which it is and you have cited nothing to prove otherwise. To reiterate:

          https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ks.html

          Ethnic groups: homogeneous (except for about 20,000 Chinese).

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans#Genetic_studies

          “Studies of polymorphisms in the human Y-chromosome have so far produced evidence to suggest that the Korean people have a long history as a distinct, mostly endogamous ethnic group, with successive waves of people moving to the peninsula and three major Y-chromosome haplogroups.”

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans#Autosomal_studies

          A study led by Korean researchers found that of the East Asians, the Koreans are the most genetically distant from Africans. In the same study, It was found that Koreans in the southwest region are close to Japanese, while Koreans in the midwest region is close to people in North China.

          A recent paper of 2009 shows Koreans have no Austronesian DNA, whereas the Japanese and Chinese have some Austronesian DNA in their genome. Among the East Asians, Koreans share the least DNA with the Austronesians.

          http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0029502

          I can’t wait to hear you explain away all this data. And before you claim that “No! This data is wrong! Koreans can’t be pure! There are non-Koreans in Korea as we speak, silly!” To this I reply, “No, the foreigners in Korea are not Korean. Neither are their offspring. Non-Koreans in Korea were never Korean to begin with. They may have some Korean blood in them and have Korean citizenship, but they are not Korea, for the very definition of Korean is to possess 100% Korean blood.” There are obvious ways to trace ones Korean lineage so there is an obvious way to tell whether an individual in Korea is a member of the Korean tribe.

          “All nations have selfish intentions. So what? It doesn’t change the fact that Korea has benefitted from American occupation on the whole. To deny this is a lie.”

          You simply fail to understand that your definition of “benefited on the whole” is not an objective statement, but a subjective one.

          Not only is it impossible to determine whether the ongoing American occupation has been “beneficial for Korea on the whole”, it hastily disregards the non-economic costs that carry equal value to any economic benefits Korea may have received. It’s amazing how apparent and unapologetic your colonialist attitude really is. The colonialist argument of “COLONIALISM BENEFITS COUNTRIES AS A WHOLE” was EXACTLY the crooked, perfidious argument made by colonial powers when they unjustly colonized and subjugated various tribes.

          The very same Western academicians you mentioned earlier acknowledged this ages ago, yet this has obviously not occurred to you.

          “Korea on the whole would never want Americans nor American money to leave.”

          Obviously not now, because if they did Americans would not be here today. That doesn’t mean the majority or even a plurality wish for them to stay forever. But this is besides the point. Let’s be serious, Koreans are using them for strategic reasons and as soon as those reasons cease to exist, I can guarantee you their presence will no longer be needed.

          “All genes are from Africa. if we want to really speak about it at the most basic level. It’s totally irrelevant. So your genes have been concentrated in Korea for a long period of time. it doesn’t matter. Things change. Do you find change intimidating and hard to deal with?”

          You are correct in that we all technically came from Africa. By the same logic, we are actually from wherever the first Euarchonta came to be. Or we could go back further and say that we’re all technically from wherever the first cell appeared. See why this doesn’t work? At some point you have to delineate the various populations of humans that exist today. Not all tribes are identical. Different tribes exist and trace their heritage through different intermediate ancestors, even though all humans trace their DNA to an original, common ancestor. Does the group that migrated out of Africa and headed toward Europe have much in common with the group that ended up in the Korean peninsula? Nope. Genetically speaking, Koreans are actually the most distant group from Africans, so statements like “Aren’t we all Africans?” holds true only in one sense. At some point, human populations spread out and evolved into distinct groups.

          You just acknowledged that my genes trace back to other Koreans, who themselves have occupied Korea for ages. These bonds are just what constitutes Korean-ness. So you acknowledge the existence of a blood-based Korean tribe. You have the draw the line somewhere, and this is precisely where Koreans do as such. The problem I have with foreigners is exemplified no better than in individuals such as yourself. You possess a colonial mentality, no respect for the preservation of tribes, and an arrogance that is exactly why foreigners like you should never be considered Korean.

          “Ask Singapore and Hong Kong how they feel about the English. Anglophiles are common there. They have done more good than bad.”

          Relevance?

          “Korea already has the economic traditions of Europe here. Capitalism is European and so is democracy. It is now part of global culture. They have been positive overall.”

          Interesting bit: Korea pursued protectionist policies – and practiced merchantilist policies in the past – since its inception, and still does to a degree, and still developed to the vibrant nation she is today. It has also felt the negative effects of said capitalism so before you extol the virtues of capitalism, be aware that it is merely your opinion that European economic and democratic traditions have been “positive overall”. Not to mention the various critiques of capitalism that exist today, but this is starting to digress from the topic. Moving on.

          “Ahh the beauties of globalization which you reject. And by the way globalization is not a new phenomenon. It has been going on for 1000s of years. Those that were slower to adapt were taken advantage of like Korea. So I would suggest that is a great reason to adapt to prevent that happening again. Again multiculturalism goes hand in hand with globalization. Get ready for more foreigners to come in.”

          I reiterate, it is up to Koreans to decide the extent to which they are affected by both globalization and multiculturalism. You are not Korean so your words are without an audience.

          “Korea is doing well and will continue to do better. I am measuring the wealth of countries by the GDP per capita. I wouldn’t consider Korea rich, though some may. It will be rich soon I guess.”

          Well, let’s look at the data:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

          The U.S. is ranked #6 ($48,387), while SK is ranked #25($31,714). Making the case that “Korea is not rich” MERELY by looking at GDP per capita is misleading.

          What’s the point of a $48,387 GDP per capita when the cost of living halves that figure? What’s the point of a 48,387 GDP per capita when the federal budget deficit is $1,600,000,000,000. What’s the point of a $48,387 GDP per capita when 52 million Americans are without health insurance? What’s the point of a $48,387 GDP per capita when between 1999 and 2009, real median household income declined by 5%? What’s the point of a $48,387 GDP per capita when 25% of U.S. households now have zero or negative net worth? What’s the point of a $48,387 GDP per capita when the unemployment rate among recent college grads is in the double digits?

          Let’s keep it real here, if Korea is not “rich”, then neither is America.

          “Your comparison of American and Japanese crime rates is stupid. Canada is now one of the most safest countries on earth. It is a melting pot.”

          I find it puzzling that you assert it works well in Canada when I can name countless examples of it failing.

          1. http://www.japanesecanadianhistory.net/GuideExcerptsForSocialStudies11.pdf
          2. A history of slavery.
          3. http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/634117

          Food for thought: “Visible minorities identified themselves much more strongly by their ethnic origin through the second, third and fourth generations. While 65 per cent of recent black immigrants, 70 per cent of South Asians and 52 per cent of Chinese felt they belonged in Canada, those numbers dropped to 37 per cent, 50 per cent and 44 per cent in the second generation. A third of Chinese, South Asians, Filipino and Southeast Asians reported discrimination; half of blacks did and 40 per cent of Koreans and Japanese did. In fact, a schoolyard fight in Keswick that made national news involved a Korean boy retaliating for a racial slur. Discrimination was most common in applying for jobs and at work; a store, bank or restaurant were the next most frequent. “We need to address these feelings of isolation,” said Reitz. “Among minorities born in Canada, blacks have the lowest sense of belonging, the lowest level of trust in others and the weakest sense of Canadian identity. They are the least likely to vote,” Reitz and Ryerson University assistant professor Rupa Banerjee wrote in the book Multiculturalism and Social Cohesion. “Among recent immigrants, blacks have high levels of volunteers but among the second generation this has disappeared.”

          4. http://www.lfpress.com/news/canada/2012/03/25/19546351.html

          I could go on, but you get the point.

          Racism is alive and very well up there, it seems. Canada is a nation built on the genocide of Native Americans, just like America. Is Korea? “Multiculturalism” is not without a sense of irony, it seems. Especially considering the fact that SECOND generation of immigrant children felt less Canadian than the first generation of immigrants themselves! Gee, I wonder why.

          It has failed miserably in the States, the ultimate proving ground for “multiculturalism”, so it has failed for all intents and purposes. You seem to be threatened by the fact that some tribes wish to preserve their character. To this I say, don’t be.

          “I’m married to a Korean. I will be a Korean citizen in a few years.”

          *slow clap* You might be a Korean citizen, but you will not be Korean. Neither will your children.

          “In short I think your assertions are invalid because i know I offer this country more than your close-mindedness could ever. You are the clothes Korea is trying to throw away. I am part of the new Korea. My best friend who is half Korean and Half English is part of the new Korea and my kids are part of the new Korea. We will make this country stronger.”

          And this is precisely why people like you should never be accepted to Korean society, lest be considered Korean. Let’s hope Korea comes to its senses and recognizes you for the contemptible, haughty foreigner you are.

          • Sancho

            You made some valid points that can be argued at lemgth although I can’t be bothered arguing on this site for much longer. I just disagree and could find counter exmples and arguments but all I have to read is your last sentence to know you are worth no more of my time. Your ideas are just so antiquated. What kind of country would not accept quality foreigners? Don’t let the next Einstein into the country or become a Korean because his hair isn’t black? Because he will ruin the country? Haha. I have three passports. Soon will have four. This is one of my homes and I love it here and respect the country. Again I am almost certain I offer the country more than a backward thinker like yourself does. You have so much bitterness it’s like your mum never hugged you as a kid and you have some deep issues with American society as a whole. It’s actually very sad. Cheer up mate!

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “Your ideas are just so antiquated.”

            It is the colonial mentality that you and your ilk possess that is antiquated, my foreigner friend. You are quick to judge other tribes’ ethos’ as “antiquated” and your lack of respect for other tribes is obvious.

            Every tribe has the right to exist and determine their own conditions of tribal membership. So rather than arrogantly write off such differences as “antiquated beliefs”, I sincerely hope that you learn to respect tribal differences.

            http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/22/brazil-rainforest-awa-endangered-tribe

            The Awa tribe is one such example. No tribe has the right to intrude on their land, tell them who is or isn’t a member of their tribe, or pontificate on Awaness or Awas as such. If the Awa tribe says to me, “You are not Awa and you must know your role.”, then I would gladly accept. If the Awa tribe said “You are not welcome here and must leave.”, then I would. It is not my prerogative to redefine the Awa tribe. If the Awa tribe defines itself as the individuals that are currently members of the Awa tribe and their descendents only, I was, am, and fundamentally will never be Awa. I would not be offended by this. In fact, if the Awa invited me to live in their land, teach their children Korean, and express no tribal animosity SIMPLY in virtue of the fact that I am not Awa, then it would be all that I was entitled to. Understanding this should be the first requirement for any foreigner, including you, who wishes to be accepted to Korean society.

            “What kind of country would not accept quality foreigners? Don’t let the next Einstein into the country or become a Korean because his hair isn’t black? Because he will ruin the country?”

            What constitutes “quality foreigners” is a matter for Koreans themselves to decide. I am not against all immigration to Korea. I understand that foreigners will inevitably end up in Korea, for one reason or another. It is to the duty of Koreans to be vigilant in who it accepts into the country. I have no problems with accepting quality foreigners, AND I QUOTE:

            “I see one possible scenario where it might be commendable to promote multiculturalism: if the morals and intentions of every foreigner, i.e. someone not of Korean blood, were pure AND naturalization required absolute assimilation into Korean society – this is also part of the reason why I despise some gyopos for their entitlement. Look at how foreigners behave in Korea; foreigners don’t put the interests of Korean people first, nor do I expect them to. Foreigners try to impose their values on Korean society http://thegrandnarrative.com , treat Koreans with contempt (http://english.hani….al/516604.html), and take advantage of Korea’s “naivete” http://populargusts….er-scandal.html It’s perturbing how haphazardly welcoming of foreigners some Koreans can be.”

            Here is an example of what is NOT a quality foreigner. American Joe Schmoe with a degree in anything, from Anycollege, with no Korean fluency, who comes to teach English in public schools in Korea. I acknowledge that this policy was enacted by Koreans in the first place, but it is obvious that a sizable population of foreigners who came to teach English in Korea have been anything but “quality” – with those standards, who could expect anything else, really? The recent decisions of various provincial educational offices to require more stringent credentials reflects the realization of this problem. An American who graduated from a top 50 university, is fluent in Korean, and possesses TESOL certs and/or experience is an example of a “quality foreigner”.

            So, no. I have absolutely no problem with “quality foreigners”. The problem is that many foreigners currently in Korea are far from such a title.

            “This is one of my homes and I love it here and respect the country. Again I am almost certain I offer the country more than a backward thinker like yourself does.”

            It is clear from this, along with everything you’ve said hitherto, that you do not truly respect my people.

  • Chucky3176

    People people, Jasmine Lee is a Korean citizen, and by the constitution of the nation, she is fully eligible to run for office. And that’s good enough for me. End of story.
    I am a nationalist, who only want to look out for the interests of Korea for the benefit of the people of Korea, but I’m not a racialist. I am not a fan of multiculturalism, but if someone takes up South Korean citizenship, then that citizenship and the law should be honored, no matter what race, creed, sex, or religion.

    Read what Jasmine Lee says about Korea. This is the short summary of what she says: She has been welcomed and loved by Koreans since 1995 when she first put her feet in Korea. Despite what some anonymous people said in their twitter and SNS and other social networks, she takes courage and strength from all the real live Koreans around her who are supporting her – after all, if there was no such support, she would never have gotten elected. She says this proves South Korea’s tolerance and acceptance. Not bad for insect eating, language/culture thieving, racist uncivilized people, as described of Koreans, by a few here.

    http://news.donga.com/Society/3/03/20120418/45601995/1

    Thanks a lot, Korean media, blowing this whole f*cking thing into a huge issue due to some anti comments on the internet which are quite common in every country, and which nobody would have even noticed if the media didn’t give them the attention they craved. And no responsible media in the world would have used it as a worthy topic on the national headline news. The sensationalizing is quite pathetic.

    • sayitlikeitis

      I just want to make my position clear, I dont care whether or Jasmine Lee is a korean citizen or not, if she is then fine. As I said earlier, my main concern is that examples like hers are symptomatic of multicultural policy taking root in korea as a whole. The point is, in a nutshell we should welcome foreigners who already find themselves in korea, and have korean citizenship etc, but we should not make a policy out of it; which is exactly what the multiculturalists are trying to do.

    • Jytte

      Chucky3176 <- Ignore this guy
      His family has relationship with Southeast Asians. His grandma or something is a Vietnamese mail order bride.

      • redwhitedude

        Nonsense. Stop it with personal attacks.
        Jasmine Lee is being singled out unfairly.

  • http://www.matthewsawtell.com Matthew A. Sawtell

    The world is has always been “small”, its only the barriers that are getting smaller.

    • Chucky3176

      Here’s the Conservative paper, bashing on the Liberals for bashing Jasmine Lee.

      http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2012/04/17/2012041701606.html?news_Head1

      This Conservative paper says that the left wing have always supported multiculturalism, and liberal immigration. But all of a sudden the left wing have completely turn around, and start bashing Jasmine Lee on the internet. And this is the election year where Parliamentary voting just completed, and the national election is in December. The Conservative paper asks, so what gives?

      But may I remind the Conservatives as well, they, not too long ago, were advocating stiffer immigration policy, tighter rules, and enforcement of immigration laws. But now all of a sudden, because they have Jasmine Lee as one of their candidates, they have turned around have become the liberal immigration policy advocators, admonishing the party that used to advocate liberal immigration policies?

      This switcheroos of the two main political parties’ positions in the election year is quite amusing. The liberals have become conservatives, while the conservatives have become liberals – only because they want their own candidates elected and their political party rule the day, and to do that, attacking the perceived weaknesses of the candidates and mercilessly pounding on their characters and reputation, is a popular strategy. All the candidates from both opposing parties have been accused of either of being the daughter of a dictator, a commie, a sexual molester of the sister-in-law, a person who is disrespecting of elderly people, a North Korean spy, a corrupt money hoarder, a drunken wife beater, and on and on. The list of all the candidates who have been accused of all these fill the roster of all the political parties. One candidate is even accused of vote rigging. Now add Jasmine Lee to the list, as the fake diploma graduate who wants to work for illegal immigrants.

      This is how Korean politics work, and Lee Jasmine may have nothing to do with anything, she maybe just a pawn of political parties.

  • Chucky3176

    It turns out this whole affair about people supposedly twitting bad things about Jasmine Lee, was all orchestrated for political purpose, to publicize Jasmine Lee. There were no real racist attacks on Jasmine Lee on the internet. On the contrary, there were so many Koreans calling out against being racist, and defending Jasmine Lee. Even if these supposed hate twitter really do exist, it’s really unethical by the media (especially by the newspapers who support Jasmine Lee’s Senuri party) to splash it all over the headlines. It’s like making top story headlines and writing editorials and complaining about topics posted by anonymous users on Youtube.com.

    This is turning into another political fallout and a farce in Korea.

    http://todayhumor.co.kr/board/view.php?kind=total&table=sisa&no=197759

    http://kimjonghee.blogspot.ca/2012/04/kbs-mbc.html

    http://media.daum.net/society/others/view.html?cateid=1067&newsid=20120417164714027&p=moneytoday

    • acorn

      woooo this is fascinating….. the media coverage speaks as much about itself as in itself,,, thank chucky

  • Soo Ae

    Really sad to see in the 21st century how racist, prejudice, and xenophobic people are. While Korea tries to mimic America’s way of living, even down to eye surgery to look like a “Caucasian”, it’s pathetic to see how, although we are accepting of them coming over here to better their lives, they aren’t accepting of us in their country. It’s a two-way street, you know. Get over this shit. We are all the same. We are HUMAN. Stop looking at the outer shell, and look within.

  • SylvianDark

    Multiculturalism has done irreparable harm to the United States. Hopefully South Korea won’t follow in our footsteps.

    • Paulie Walnuts

      Hopefully South Koreans will have the wisdom and forbearance to reject it. As a Korean myself, I truly fear for my people.

      • steven

        Oh I see. What are your thoughts on Korean national identity?

        • Paulie Walnuts

          What aspect of Korean national identity specifically? That is a very broad question.

  • 김민지 XVI

    Hi everyone,

    This is my first time posting on this site and I rarely even post on the Internet at all. First I shall begin with a brief overview of my “credentials”…as someone in this very long string of comments said, being ethnically Korean should not have be an exclusive qualification for commenting on this post, especially when doing it on as globalised a platform as the Internet and through its colour-, age-, race-, sexual-orientation- and gender-blind filter made of ‘a collection of wires’, but, for the sake of mollifying a certain Mr. Walnuts, I respectfully divulge. I am Korean, fully, by blood and nationality (and I hold ONLY Republic of Korea nationality…and proudly so). I work for an inter-governmental international organisation that deals with migration. I also happen to have studied many of the issues, concepts and philosophies elicited here (nationality, national identity, sovereignty, ethnicity, etc.) when I dragged my feet down the hallowed halls of academia (ie, grad school) once upon a time. However, I did so from the perspective of political philosophy and legal theory, not anthropology or culture studies. I do not claim to be an expert in any of the above-mentioned “credentials” but as a perpetual student seek to learn more through dialogical and dialectical exchange.

    Naturally, I’ve been following the Jasmine Lee incident, and was happy to find out that it more or less ended with the finding that, in fact, only 1% of tweets referring to her was of the shamefully racist and xenophobic variety that made headlines. This gives me major hope in my country and people, as much as I have lost it (yet again) in our popular media. Nonetheless, the content of the 1% (a bulk of which I read myself in real-time through Naver’s 실시간검색 revealed worrying conceptual misconceptions and ideological positions, many of which have been rehashed here.

    Please note, I haven’t been able to read all the comments on this page (it’s work-hours =_=), so I’m not going to pretend that I address every single pressing issue brought up, but, from what I have read, these are some of the topics where I might be able to contribute my 2 cents:

    1) Nationality v. national identity/ethnicity/race: Certain people here seem to believe that nationality and national identity are the same, or should be same, and in the case of Korea, Korean nationality = Korean national identity or at least Koreans perceive it to be so. It’s not uncommon for a lot of people to confuse nationality with national identity, not just Koreans. Nationality, however, is the logical, purely legal, consequence of the existence of a state with an active legal order; in other words, it is one of the many consequences of state sovereignty. Its criteria is applied by the rule of law backed by the exercise of a (hopefully) legitimate authority. While I’m not denying the possibility that certain positions on “national identity” may influence this criteria (most directly through the electoral and legislative process), the ultimate determining agent of nationality is the law. For as long as the exercise of state sovereignty and the community of recognised sovereign states (of which the Republic of Korea is one by virtue of UN membership) exist, it has always been so and will always be so. National identity, on the other hand, belongs not in the realm of law, but society, social theories, morality, ideology, historicist “religions”, etc. Jasmine Lee is a South Korean citizen by virtue of satisfying the criteria to be bestowed South Korean nationality under South Korean law, regardless of where she was born, what she looks like, what language she speaks, etc. Whether or not she is “Korean enough”, ie, has a strong enough Korean national identity, is a wholly separate debate. Therefore, the tweets that claimed either 1) she is a (insert expletive) foreigner or 2) she should not be considered Korean because she’s brown and hence cannot be admitted to Parliament are baseless as far as the mechanics of 21st century Korean law is concerned.

    2) Many fine users have already pointed out how artificial modern-day Korean nationalism really is, how it is really an imposed theory from Colonial Japan that was continued as an institutionalised policy due to South Korea’s need to develop economically and as a response to division of the peninsula, so I’m not going to belabour that point again here. Nonetheless, I think it’s always important to keep that in mind, and, in particular, for Koreans to reflect on whenever they are tempted to go the way of knee-jerk xenophobia.

    3) If anything, now that Korea is a democracy where academics are no longer censored, more and more historians are speaking out about Korea’s REAL history, which, as it turns out, is FAR from “pure-blood”. Heck, two entire and very large clans in Korea (the Heos and Kims of Kimhae) claim, and proudly too, that they are descendants of an Indian princess from the 7th century. Arab traders frequently came to Korea on the silk road around this time as well, and many stayed to procreate. The Dutch kindly gave us some of their genes in the 14-1500s after crashing (at least) twice on Korean coasts. A scion of the Vietnamese royal family and his entourage were accepted into Koryeo as refugees, from which comes one of the Lee clans of Korea. Then, of course, there are the more heard-of and negatively-connotated passages through Korea of the Mongols, minor China-based tribes like the Khitites and Jurchen, the Manchurians, and the Japanese. Not surprisingly, the DNA composition of a representative sample of Koreans was found to consist of 60% Northern Asian stock (of all different tribes) and 40% Southeast Asian stock. History and biology converge on the same conclusion: Koreans are “mutts”. And many of us would have had great-great-great-great-great-grandmothers that looked like Jasmine Lee.

    3) I keep seeing references to “tribe theory”. I don’t know if this is a theory of anthropology, sociology, culture studies or some other area of study; this is my first time hearing of it. As I said, I’m not an anthropologist or culturologist. But the more I read of this “tribe theory” through the replies, the more I’m inclined to believe it’s more an ideology or theology rather than a cultural theory. The cultural theories that I know of, through anthropologist friends or chanced-upon articles in academic journals, suggest that the most widely-accepted theories on culture in this day and age view culture as a dynamic, and not static, construction. In other words, what we define as culture is in fact the result of continuous negotiations with the environment as well as internal and external dialectical processes, NOT an unchanged inheritance. If anything, the idea that culture is an impregnable, defined given seems only to have come into the world with the advent of political borders and the modern nation-state, as individuals internalised the notion of borders, took them as scientific fact, and built various strains of nationalism from that foundation.

    4) I’m not interested in condemning those here who deem genetic purity as an infallible moral value, but I do know that in the natural world (of which all humans of all races are undeniably a part of) biodiversity is the order of the day. Now I’m not a scientist, but I raise plants and volunteer at hospitals, and there I see the same thing. The plants with a colourful genetic lineage are the better survivors, and (organic) farmers know that planting a variety of crops near each other fortifies the soil and makes the plants and their progeny stronger. I used to volunteer at a hospital that treated children with various heart diseases, and consistently the most heart-breaking (no pun intended) cases the surgeons would tell me about were the children from ethnic groups that fiercely practiced marriage within the same clan or race. Regardless of what we might think or which cultural, anthropological, social, or political ideology we might adopt, Evolution (or God, depending on what you view as the determinant force of the universe) is clearly on the side of diversity and multiculturalism.

    5) On the claim that “the US, UK, Canada, Europe, etc. demonstrates that multiculturalism has failed there and will necessarily always fail”….I can’t speak much for the US or Canada since I haven’t been there long enough, but I currently live in Europe and researched a bit immigration in Europe. It’s a bit misleading to say that multiculturalism in Europe has failed because, in a way, it was never meant to succeed here. Europe started becoming a modern, multicultural continent just after WWII through 2 economic developments: 1) the importation of foreign labour for post-war reconstruction and 2) the beginnings of the European Union. In the case of 1) Europe was only interested in labour, which at the time and under the circumstances, could only come from abroad and would leave after a short time. This worked more or less well until the oil crisis of 1979 and wars and revolutions in many of the foreign workers’ countries made it difficult to send them back. So, in a way, multiculturalism was thrust on Europe through uncontrollable circumstances, but also their own unpreparedness. From the outset, Europe was never interested in multiculturalism. These people were going to come for a short spell and leave. The prevailing policy was: European buildings and business would be rebuilt, these foreigner would make a little extra cash for their families, then they’ll go back so we won’t have to worry about their integration; there, everyone’s happy. So, if you never pursued multiculturalism in the first place, how do you fail at it? In the case of 2), it was a purely economic arrangement (well, with the added political benefit of making sure France and Germany never went to war with each other again) and multiculturalism came about as the European project expanded and institutionalised the already-happening mobility of Europeans into the Schengen arrangement. Once again, here, migration and multiculturalism came about as an afterthought (though it is thankfully in a better state than 1)). I realise that this is a simplification of the history of modern European immigration, but I’m already going way too long in this comment and the important lesson to take from the European experience is not that multiculturalism will always necessarily be a policy failure but that preparedness, good planning, strong social institutions and a formal integration policy that includes educating the greater public on multicultural issues are key to success.

    • Paulie Walnuts

      “Being ethnically Korean should not have be an exclusive qualification for commenting on this post.”

      Ironically, the magnanimity you display is largely absent in other allegedly “multicultural” tribes and when the very issues up for debate involve Korean identity, then it should, I argue, be limited to Koreans. No German should grant me an audience if I decided to pontificate on German identity, as no Koreans should grant non-Koreans pontificating on Korean identity an audience. I would like to also point out here that it is not surprising that the very proponents of multiculturalism in Korea thus far ITT have been non-Koreans themselves! How convenient. But let’s see what you, as a Korean, have to say.

      “Whether or not she is “Korean enough”, ie, has a strong enough Korean national identity, is a wholly separate debate. Therefore, the tweets that claimed either 1) she is a (insert expletive) foreigner or 2) she should not be considered Korean because she’s brown and hence cannot be admitted to Parliament are baseless as far as the mechanics of 21st century Korean law is concerned.”

      No one is disputing whether she is legally a politician or legally Korean. But when people say things like “She is not Korean enough” or “She does not have a strong enough Korean national identity” or “She is a ___ foreigner” or “she should not be considered because she’s brown yadayadayada” they are questioning whether she is Korean in the sense of being 100% Korean by blood, which she isn’t. So yes, I agree, by law, those claims as to whether she is “legally” qualified to legislate are obviously wrong. But what is in question here is if she is Korean in the sense of being 100% Korean by blood. Is there a question of legitimacy – SEPARATE FROM legal legitimacy – with regards to a non-Korean-blooded person being able to determine the future of a tribe she has no blood affiliation to?

      “Many fine users have already pointed out how artificial modern-day Korean nationalism really is, how it is really an imposed theory from Colonial Japan that was continued as an institutionalised policy due to South Korea’s need to develop economically and as a response to division of the peninsula, so I’m not going to belabour that point again here. Nonetheless, I think it’s always important to keep that in mind, and, in particular, for Koreans to reflect on whenever they are tempted to go the way of knee-jerk xenophobia.”

      By your logic, ANY shade of “nationalism” is artificial. This charge of “artificiality” can be leveled to any present day “state with an active legal order” enforcing these laws. Surprisingly, no one is alleging that America’s or any other countries variety of nationalism is “artificial”, so the charge of “artificiality” by itself is not grounds to discredit any nation. Put bluntly, who cares if the source of Korea’s nationalism just so happened to come from a different tribe? It has adopted it, just like any other nation that exists in the modern world. Moving on.

      “Two entire and very large clans in Korea (the Heos and Kims of Kimhae) claim, and proudly too, that they are descendants of an Indian princess from the 7th century.”

      Does merely claiming that a clan comes from an Indian princess make the claim true? You should be citing scientific studies, not the mythological lore of a couple clans when discussing Korean origins.

      “Arab traders came…the Dutch [came]….the Vietnamese royal family [came]… the Mongols [came]…the Khitites [came] the Jurchen [came...the Manchurians [came]…and the Japanese [came].”

      I am not disputing any of these claims, as I have already acknowledged the limited historical presence of foreigners in Korea throughout its history. So what?

      “Not surprisingly, the DNA composition of a representative sample of Koreans was found to consist of 60% Northern Asian stock (of all different tribes) and 40% Southeast Asian stock.”

      This statement is merely an assertion until you provide a scientific source. Unlike you, I have provided sources for all my statements w/r/t to Korean homogeneity. Here are some interesting snippets from one such source:

      http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0004210#pone-0004210-t004

      “Koreans are overall more similar to northeast Asians than to southeast Asians. Koreans, expanding at about 30 KYA [31] also resemble other northern populations. Historical evidence suggests that the Ancient Chosun, the first state-level society, was established in the region of southern Manchuria and later moved into the Pyongyang area of the northwestern Korean Peninsula. Based on archeological and anthropological data, the early Korean population possibly had an origin in the northern regions of the Altai-Sayan and Baikal regions of Southeast Siberia.”

      You say, “A representative sample of Koreans was found to consist of 60% Northern Asian stock (of all different tribes) and 40% Southeast Asian stock”. I assume you will reply to my post with a source for that quote, so I will assume that it is true, for now. Let’s analyze what this actually means. Does it mean that 40% of my genes are Southeast Asian? Does it mean I resemble Southeast Asians to a degree of 40%? Does it mean my parents are 40% genetically Southeast Asian? In other words, if what you are saying is true, all Koreans alive today should resemble Southeast Asians to a degree of 40%. Is this what you are saying? Or are 40% of the genes of all Koreans today Southeast Asian? Or is this it? You have failed to make it clear exactly how “a representative sample of Koreans was found to consist of 60% Northern Asian stock (of all different tribes) and 40% Southeast Asian stock” = Koreans are mutts.

      You have also failed to address my earlier statements:

      “https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ks.html

      Ethnic groups: homogeneous (except for about 20,000 Chinese).

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans#Genetic_studies

      “Studies of polymorphisms in the human Y-chromosome have so far produced evidence to suggest that the Korean people have a long history as a distinct, mostly endogamous ethnic group, with successive waves of people moving to the peninsula and three major Y-chromosome haplogroups.”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans#Autosomal_studies

      A study led by Korean researchers found that of the East Asians, the Koreans are the most genetically distant from Africans. In the same study, It was found that Koreans in the southwest region are close to Japanese, while Koreans in the midwest region is close to people in North China.

      A recent paper of 2009 shows Koreans have no Austronesian DNA, whereas the Japanese and Chinese have some Austronesian DNA in their genome. Among the East Asians, Koreans share the least DNA with the Austronesians.

      http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0029502

      “History and biology converge on the same conclusion: Koreans are “mutts”.”

      You are not allowed to make this conclusion until you address my aforementioned statements. But let’s assume this statement is true. If this is true, why would the CIA world factbook simply state Korea’s population as being “homogeneous”? When a person thinks of the word “Korea”, do images of mutts pop up?

      Let’s be clear, you are equivocating with respect to the word mutt. You are saying “Koreans are mutts” based on a vague, unsubstantiated claim of “Koreans are of 40% SEA stock”. You are saying that “Because there may be a relatively small amount of ancient genetic influence from non-Koreans in Koreans = Koreans are mutts”. I have already acknowledged this point, “You can think of “pureness” as a spectrum, with mutt tribes on one end, and de facto pure tribes on the other. An example of a mutt tribe would be Americans. An example of a pure tribe would be Koreans. I’ve already acknowledged numerous times that Korea has been invaded and therefore contains non-Korean blood, obviously. There is a difference between this and a tribe literally composed of immigrants – of various tribes themselves – and mutt offspring, like Americans. Americans literally wiped out/interbred with an entire mega-tribe of indigenous people in the process of establishing their own. Korea has no such history. Second, it is plainly clear that higher genotypic variation exists among the American tribe vs. the Korean tribe. Higher genotypic variation = higher phenotypic variation. This is true for America. Not true for Korea. Why? Because Korea is homogeneous, this explains why there is so little phenotypic variation among Koreans. Thus, it reasonable to say Americans are not pure, at least in this sense. Conversely, it is reasonable to say Koreans are pure.”

      I have already defined the terms under which I use the terms “mutt” and “pure”, yet you are assuming your definition of the term “mutt” should be the accepted definition. None of your charges invalidate my use of the words mutt and pure.

      Let me illustrate this concept in a easy way for you – and other readers – to understand.

      Just as you say, we know from history that Korea has been invaded numerous times. However, this means that we know that Korea was a distinct tribe at war with other tribes. So this means that any mutt offspring that were produced by these invasions should not be considered Korean in virtue of the fact that they were half Korean, half-Chinese/Japanese/whatever. You cannot deny this. We, in 2012, simply do not have any records of such mutt offpsring and how they were absorbed into the larger Korean population. Now you may say, “Hey, wait? How far back can you go like this? At some point, those mutt offspring were absorbed and became Korean!” You are perfectly reasonable for saying this. I have no problem granting you this point. Here’s the crucial turn: AT SOME POINT you MUST draw a line as to the origin of Korean pureness. I have no problem with simply drawing that line at 1905, right before the Japanese occupied Korea. Let us assume that the group of people who inhabited the geographical confines of Korea at 1905 before the Japanese occupation are the progenitors of all Koreans today. This includes their pureblooded descendants as well. I have no problem with this. If we are to talk about Koreanness from that point onward, it’s very easy to see how obviously NOT Korean people like Mr. Sanbon and Mr. Sancho are. Thank god for the Korean family register system to “clearly define ethnic distinctions like this is in order to have a ready made bulwark against would be multicultural (mass immigration) policies”, as Sayitlikeitis would say.

      So no, your claim that “Koreans are mutts” is far from substantiated. In fact, it goes against most conceptions of that term today.

      “I keep seeing references to “tribe theory”. I don’t know if this is a theory of anthropology, sociology, culture studies or some other area of study; this is my first time hearing of it. As I said, I’m not an anthropologist or culturologist. But the more I read of this “tribe theory” through the replies, the more I’m inclined to believe it’s more an ideology or theology rather than a cultural theory.”

      Tribal theory is my own theory to explain, among other things, the interactions between different tribes. You can think of it vaguely resembling primordialism/IR theory…all theories of human interaction. I will start grad school in the fall and I am in the process of developing it so, as of now, it is not a theory discussed bin academia today.

      “The most widely-accepted theories on culture in this day and age view culture as a dynamic, and not static, construction. In other words, what we define as culture is in fact the result of continuous negotiations with the environment as well as internal and external dialectical processes, NOT an unchanged inheritance.”

      I don’t think anyone is disputing that cultures change. There is a difference between cultures changing and the genetic makeup of the individuals of tribes changing.

      “In the natural world biodiversity is the order of the day. Now I’m not a scientist, but I raise plants and volunteer at hospitals, and there I see the same thing. The plants with a colourful genetic lineage are the better survivors, and (organic) farmers know that planting a variety of crops near each other fortifies the soil and makes the plants and their progeny stronger. Regardless of what we might think evolution is clearly on the side of diversity and multiculturalism.”

      Interesting. So you are saying that humans should be procreating on the basis of hybrid vigor. Or you are saying that hybrid vigor should be actively pursued as a policy of all tribes due to the biological benefits in other species. I hate to break it to you, hybrid vigor is not the only factor in human reproduction. What has actually happened in nations with members of multiple tribes where conditions are ripe for hybrid vigor? Have all these tribes harmoniously blended together under the pretext of advancing hybrid vigor? No, in fact America is a salad bowl, not a melting pot. The possible biological advantages of hybrid vigor alone are not – and should not – be the primary principle of tribal reproduction. So no, evolution is in no way “clearly on the side of diversity and reproduction”. Here is where the sheer irony of your statements kicks in: your very argument that evolution calls for humans to modify tribal populations is PRECISELY what the Nazis used to “improve” the genetic composition of Germany! For shame, for shame.

      Herein lies the problem – you cannot use an evolutionary argument when it comes to supporting or opposing tribal intermixing, because the very judgements of social darwinism themselves are subjective.

      “I used to volunteer at a hospital that treated children with various heart diseases, and consistently the most heart-breaking (no pun intended) cases the surgeons would tell me about were the children from ethnic groups that fiercely practiced marriage within the same clan or race.”

      I ask you to city a scientific study comparing the rates of inbreeding related diseases/complications in the Korean and American populations. Yeah, the royal families of old Europe suffered the ill effects of inbreeding. This is different from all members of the Korean tribe breeding with any other member of the Korean tribe not in the immediate family. The gaps in your logic are alarming, if I may be frank.

      “On the claim that “the US, UK, Canada, Europe, etc. demonstrates that multiculturalism has failed there and will necessarily always fail”….I can’t speak much for the US or Canada since I haven’t been there long enough”

      Yes, completely and conveniently ignore the gravitas of the archetypical failed multicultural nation, America. A country BUILT on multiculturalism and the progenitors of modern multiculturalism itself as it exists today.

      “I currently live in Europe and researched a bit immigration in Europe. It’s a bit misleading to say that multiculturalism in Europe has failed because, in a way, it was never meant to succeed here.”

      This is hilarious. “Multiculturalism was never meant for Germany because it was never meant to succeed here.” Multiculturalism was “thrust upon Europe”. Yet a minute ago you were claiming that evolution itself calls for all tribes to embrace multiculturalism! The lack of consistency in your arguments is downright hilarious. So somehow the evolutionary benefits of multiculturalism applies to Korea, but not Germany. Somehow it has failed in Germany and was never meant for Germany, but we should ignore this case.

      So this, along with a multicultural country like America, where the very concept of multiculturalism as it exists today originates AND where it was SUPPOSED to succeed, but failed should not be good reasons to reject multiculturalism.

      Yet you say things like, “Europe was never interested in multiculturalism”. This implies that they consciously decided, “Multiculturalism is not for Europe”. Yet it is impossible for Koreans to say “Multiculturalism is not for Korea”. Hilarious.

      “If you never pursued multiculturalism in the first place, how do you fail at it?”

      Which is all the more reason for Korea to not pursue it as a policy to begin with. After all, according to your logic, it can then never fail in its pursuit of multiculturalism.

      Besides, I just illustrated how America is EXACTLY such a nation that pursued multiculturalism and has failed miserably at it. Yet you repeatedly claim that multiculturalism will not always necessarily be a policy failure, ignoring plenty of evidence AGAINST its viability even in nations EXPONENTIALLY more “multicultural” than Germany.

      “Preparedness, good planning, strong social institutions and a formal integration policy that includes educating the greater public on multicultural issues are key to success.”

      Noble opinions indeed. A rather naive viewpoint, especially considering things like this:

      http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/634117

      Food for thought: “Visible minorities identified themselves much more strongly by their ethnic origin through the second, third and fourth generations. While 65 per cent of recent black immigrants, 70 per cent of South Asians and 52 per cent of Chinese felt they belonged in Canada, those numbers dropped to 37 per cent, 50 per cent and 44 per cent in the second generation. A third of Chinese, South Asians, Filipino and Southeast Asians reported discrimination; half of blacks did and 40 per cent of Koreans and Japanese did. In fact, a schoolyard fight in Keswick that made national news involved a Korean boy retaliating for a racial slur. Discrimination was most common in applying for jobs and at work; a store, bank or restaurant were the next most frequent. “We need to address these feelings of isolation,” said Reitz. “Among minorities born in Canada, blacks have the lowest sense of belonging, the lowest level of trust in others and the weakest sense of Canadian identity. They are the least likely to vote,” Reitz and Ryerson University assistant professor Rupa Banerjee wrote in the book Multiculturalism and Social Cohesion. “Among recent immigrants, blacks have high levels of volunteers but among the second generation this has disappeared.”

      Yeah, it’s worked great so far! It hasn’t worked in a mutt countries composed ENTIRELY of immigrants, yet you credulously believe a country where 99% of the population is homogeneous will somehow pull it off with less hitches. You, my Korean friend, lack perspective.

      • Paulie Walnuts

        EDIT – instead of “Somehow it has failed in Germany and was never meant for Germany, but we should ignore this case.”

        I meant to say, “Somehow it has failed in Germany and was never “meant” for Germany, but it is somehow “meant” for Korea and we should ignore the case of Germany.”

        • Brett Sanbon

          I’m sitting here laughing because it just occurred to me how many hours you must have spent over the last 2 weeks reading, picking apart what people have written word by word, starting your rebuttal, researching all sorts of references, rereading what it is you are rebutting, finishing your rebuttal, posting your rebuttal, re-reading your rebuttal, editing your rebuttal…. All of this well-over 30 times (less editing) this one article.

          Just to think of how many other website you do this on…. Remember when I wrote I never “implied, you don’t have a life”. Now I am saying it and implying it. Paulie, you must have a sad sad life, that this has become your obsession. People AREN’T coming to this site to debate YOU. You are just vain, AND selfish.

          Seriously though, if you had to estimate, over the last two weeks, you must have spent well over 15 hours doing all of the above mentioned, no? You, my American friend, should say all of this “mutt” stuff, to foreigners in public (not in your circle of Korean-American friends), instead of from behind your screen.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “I’m sitting here laughing because it just occurred to me how many hours you must have spent over the last 2 weeks reading, picking apart what people have written word by word, starting your rebuttal, researching all sorts of references, rereading what it is you are rebutting, finishing your rebuttal, posting your rebuttal, re-reading your rebuttal, editing your rebuttal…. All of this well-over 30 times (less editing) this one article.”

            The tenuousness and inconsistency of the arguments brought up by the other side are equally laughable so I guess that makes two of us, my waygook friend.

            “Remember when I wrote I never “implied, you don’t have a life”. Now I am saying it and implying it. Paulie, you must have a sad sad life, that this has become your obsession. People AREN’T coming to this site to debate YOU. You are just vain, AND selfish. Seriously though, if you had to estimate, over the last two weeks, you must have spent well over 15 hours doing all of the above mentioned, no?”

            Character assassination! That’s a doozy. The side that resorts to ad hominems is usually the losing one. Such brilliant, piercing analysis with regards to multiculturalism in Korea!

            “You, my American friend, should say all of this “mutt” stuff, to foreigners in public (not in your circle of Korean-American friends), instead of from behind your screen.”

            I do, in fact. It’s amazing how you seem to argue everything but the relevant topics at hand. It testifies to the lack of rigor and precision that you, and many on your side, possess. Rather than have an honest discussion about multiculturalism in Korea, you’d rather sidestep the important issues and argue the most trivial ones – whether I’m a loser, vain, selfish. The same passion academians bring their many fields of interest is to be respected, but apparently if their views do not converge with yours, they are merely “obsessions”. You sir, truly are a gentleman and a scholar.

          • Brett Sanbon

            Keep “conversing”.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            For as long as elements like you exist in South Korea, I shall.

          • Brett Sanbon

            Okay…. and…?

          • James

            Gentlemen,

            Whilst we hugely encourage debate on koreaBANG and have paid great interest to your arguments, perhaps you’d like to continue it over some beers in Seoul one day.

            On rare occasions, we might moderate some comments for the below reasons::

            1. Spamming: Posting commercial or advertising messages.
            2. Flooding: Repeatedly posting the same or similar comment.
            3. Sock-puppetry: Commenting under multiple false identities.
            4. Impersonation: Commenting as someone you are not.
            5. Trolling: Repeatedly and consistently harassing other people.
            6. Long Arguments: Arguments and disagreements are okay, but if we feel an argument is repeating itself and has gone on for too long, we may moderate the participants.
            7. Stupidity: Unacceptably stupid comments may be moderated.

            We’re flying dangerously close to the wind on the long argument front so if you’d be so kind as to wrap it up, that would be lurvely. Failure to do so will make me assume that you’re perhaps more censorable on the grounds of clause ’7′.

          • Brett Sanbon

            ….. got it.

          • 김민지 XVI

            James 씨~~~~

            You will at least grant me the right of reply, right? Please, please, pretty plea~~~se ^_~

      • 김민지 XVI

        Oh my, my dear Walnuts, you ARE prolific ^^
        I daresay you should use that talent of yours to assuage the worries of my good patriotic Korean public servant colleagues who lose sleep over the demographic projection of our country, wherein the entire Korean race (however you may define that) is projected to become extinct in roughly 8 centuries, by making lots of purebred Korean babies with a like-minded Korean-American (I say Korean-American because apparently only 1% of us Korean nationals concur with you, which reduces of chances of mate-baiting among us quite a bit, n’est-ce pas?). Actually, on second thought, scrap that. Forgive me, I spoke too soon. I, as a patriotic and dutiful Korean citizen and civil servant, would not want to open up the possibility of you and your descendants (of non-Korean nationality) demanding the Korean government pay, from the taxes of hard-working Korean citizens no less, for the medical costs to treat whichever version of the Hapsburg Chin that has blighted your family simply by virtue of you all being Korean by blood and from our “tribe”. At which point, we would have to regrettably remind you that the Korean State, by definition of it being a modern State that manifests its authority through an active legal order and not the latest tribal theory in vogue, can only recognise nationality and has chosen to obligate itself, by virtue of the State sovereignty it excercises in the context of an international community of other States, to NOT discriminate based on grounds associated with national identity. What would be adding further insult to the injury borne by my fellow Korean nationals is that you would not be paying into our social security or the national pension or the national health insurance or voting or serving in the military.

        I gather from your own explanation that this tribal theory is neither widely accepted in any academic establishment nor taken seriously by any discipline, much less the disciplines relevant to this discussion. It is, in fact, a personal ideology and nothing more. Ok, brilliant. Thank you for clarifying that. Though, in light of your explanation of tribal theory as a non-existent theory I find it even more amusing that you insist on equating countries (which are based on a very well-accepted and actively applied theory) with “tribes” (“American tribe”, “Korean tribe”), a concept you admit is derived from a non-existent theory. Goes to show, though thou doth protesteth much, you haven’t quite understood my point 1). You asked if there was a legitimacy separate from legal legitimacy that could be applied to the Jasmine Lee case…why not? But the legitimacy you had in mind would more than likely fall under this ill-defined tribal theory, which would make it relevant only to Korean nationalists or fascists like yourself and wholly irrelevant to Korean nationals as such.

        “By your logic, ANY shade of “nationalism” is artificial.”
        Yes, precisely. I’m glad our 말 has 통해’ed on that front…always an exciting moment ^^.

        This charge of “artificiality” can be leveled to any present day “state with an active legal order” enforcing these laws. Surprisingly, no one is alleging that America’s or any other countries variety of nationalism is “artificial”, so the charge of “artificiality” by itself is not grounds to discredit any nation. Put bluntly, who cares if the source of Korea’s nationalism just so happened to come from a different tribe? It has adopted it, just like any other nation that exists in the modern world. Moving on.”
        But oh dear, it appears it went in one ear and out your other on this one. If you want to survive grad school, you really should pay attention a bit better ^^ ( On a side note, if you had been MY student in grad school, I’m afraid I would have had to confine you to D- territory for your knee-jerk reflex toward Wikipedia, a good source for scintillating dinner conversations, not so much for serious academic debate or half-baked drafts of your dissertation on this site). I thought I had made it perfectly clear that a State is defined by the authority made manifest through its legal order and when it is recognised by other States as such. Thus, neither America nor Korea is defined by its “nationalism” as you appear to be arguing, but by 1) the borders which demark the limits of its sovereignty/rule of law and 2)the laws within that territory that either support, laissez-faire permit, or prohibit certain activities, including “cultural” ones associated with a certain nation or nationalism. As you see, the institution of the modern country is flexible enough to permit nationalism within it and can coexist with it (insofar as it doesn’t violate its rule of law), but nationalism is wholly separate from the State. If American nationalism dies, it doesn’t mean America will go with it. Likewise, even if Korean nationalism disappears, Korea as a country and State will remain.

        For someone who is so intent on defending the national dignity of the Korean people, you seem to know so little of our history and culture. The story of the Indian princess, Heo Hwang Ok, progenitor of the Heo and Kimhae Kim clans, is well documented in Korean historical texts, the Samguk Yusa and Samguk Yuji, and is increasingly corroborated with archeological evidence. Since unlike you, I have no interest in practicing my dissertation skills on a popular online platform on the frivolity of Korean media, I’m not going to link-bomb you. I also have enough faith in your ability to do online searches (Google is your friend, despite it not being full-blooded Korean ^^).

        On the question of the DNA composition of the average Korean…I really don’t see how your rebuttal proves me wrong. My point was made not for you to nitpick the percentages to which Koreans are mixed, but to point out that Koreans are mixed, simple as that, which the research in your link also corroborates. And by “mutt” I mean precisely what it was meant to mean…the opposite of “purebred/pure-blood”…mixed. Tacking them unto the word “tribes”, which via your unacknowledged tribal theory you have arbitrarily decided shall come to occupy themselves neatly in a spectrum, does not change the denotations they have been attributed by the English language for thousands of years. “Mutt” indicates any degree of mixture, metissage, hybrid, however “relatively little” that may be. “Purebred/pureblood” indicates its opposite condition of being unmixed, uniform, of one substance. Therefore, by the conventions of the English language used to describe the factual situation communicated by the DNA research both you and I allude to, Koreans are mutts. Any idea that we are descended from one uniform bloodline is a myth.

        I have failed to address your such and such and what the not? Really? Oh the horror! ^^ You may recall, Mr. Walnuts, that my original post was for the enjoyment of everyone here and not simply for you. To be honest, I had not even bothered to read word for word every single one of your long expositions, simply because I actually work full-time in the service of the international community and my country. My sincerest apologies that I could not make you first priority, but I am taken aback by how personally you take it and how desperately you would like my world to revolve around you. I am flattered by this desire of yours for increased intimacy with me, but I’m afraid I have to draw the line on our relationship. My mother says I should never bring home a Gyopo…”they’ve been away from the Motherland and Korean culture for too long and who knows what their morals will be, or what kind of inferiority complex they would have picked up through living as a minority? It’s better to marry a foreigner”. Silly, silly Mr. Walnuts ^^

        On your rebuttal to the facts of the natural world and my personal observations of it…have you ever heard of the Law of Hume, Mr. Walnuts? I doubt you have, since you display incredible consistency in violating it in almost all your arguments. Very simply, the Law of Hume, is a theorem of logic that notes one cannot logically derive a conclusion of obligation from a premise of fact, also popularly phrased as ‘you can’t get a “should statement” from an “is statement”…An apple is red, doesn’t make it true that the apple should be red…you cannot confuse the world of fact with the world of morals with the mechanics of logic.’ (This does recall the joys of grad-school =_=). So, I have stated that the reproductive mechanisms of the natural world are inclined toward biodiversity and a species’ ability to pull from a diverse gene pool heightens its likelihood of survival (source: any high school biology textbook or farming-for-dummies manual). You have somehow concluded from this that I meant that everyone SHOULD have mixed race babies ^^;;. Aigoo…an elementary logical flaw that would have put you squarely in D- territory had you been my student. Tsk tsk….Hume is rolling over in his grave.

        Also, you ridicule me learning from personal observations and experimentation of horticulture and what I see in hospital wards. Might I remind you that observations and experience are actually integral components of the scientific method, without which there would be no scientific studies which you seem so eager for me to fling at you. But if you really want to see congenital heart diseases and inbreeding first hand, I’d be happy to connect you with my good friend, Doctor Joe R. Though, I would start packing my bags if I were you, since he lives and works in Kenya.

        “Europe was never interested in multiculturalism. This implies that they consciously decided multiculturalism is not for Europe” PUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Hume may be rolling in his grave thanks to you but I’m rolling on the floor LMFAO! ^^ So, every decision you make is done by consciously rejecting that which you had no concept of (or even that which you were conscious of, either way, hilarious)? ROFL!!!!!! So, when you move into an apartment it is because you have made the conscious decision that condos are not for you, despite (for hypothesis’ sake) you’ve never seen or lived in a condo before? When you eat a banana, is it because and only because you have consciously decided an apple is not for you? Perhaps you would, but most people have more interesting cognitive processes whereby they often make decisions without being aware of the alternative they may be rejecting. This is not an impossible scenario in the realm of policy making either. Most people here, I’m sure, have the cognitive empathy to understand how the multicultural conundrum befell Europe and why it can’t be applied credibly as a prescription on all multicultural policy attempts or models.

        “You, my Korean friend, lack perspective”
        Ah yes, the last fling of mud at me (or perhaps your unique style of flirtation? I can’t tell anymore ^^). I might lack perspective, true…perspective is an incredibly elusive ideal…but I do have the “right” nationality, which, if I recall correctly, you don’t, my American friend. Therefore, by your own argument, you have no right to “pontificate” to me about all the matters you talked about thus far. If you have any consistency, I hereby look forward to NOT getting a further response from you. If you do, you’ll just be exposing to me and everyone here that you are in fact a hypocrite and a laughing stock. (Though, regardless, I’m laughing now) ^^

        • James

          Right, no more long winded comments where you all constantly quote each other. Starting a new debate on a new article would be much more welcome, otherwise we will start to moderate comments. I’ve already removed Paulie Walnuts’ last comment.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            I respectfully question your choice to delete my comment.

            I purposely stopped refusing to Mr. Sanbon ITT. 민지 took the time to post a thoughtful response to my post, a response in which she brought up a number of new viewpoints, to which I responded to.

            I kindly request you reinstate my last post, in light of the new ideas she presented that I responded to. I understand you have the right to moderate comments here, but it’s pretty obvious this debate will spill into other articles at some point in the future. Might as well keep it contained here.

          • James

            Thanks Paulie,

            But equally as respectfully, please continue the debate elsewhere. Your comment wasn’t deleted because of its content — which I’m sure was as extensive as ever — it was simply time to draw the debate to a close. Same goes for Minji and Brett Sanbon — it’s nothing personal against any of you, it’s just important you recognise when it’s time to stop. I didn’t delete Miniji’s as well because: a) I thought it would end there and she caught me by surprise, b) she’d literally written a 2000 word essay so I couldn’t remove it and c) any comment that begins with the words “Oh my, my dear Walnuts” is, in my book, worth keeping.

            Now I feel like a cockney bartender that’s refusing to serve you another gin.

            “On yer ‘orse sunshine”

            I very much hope the debate does resurface. There’s an article about fresh allegations of a 조선족 (Chinese-Korean 朝鲜族) emerging and koreaBANG is covering it. We look forward to hearing more from all of you as the debate continues.

    • actionjksn

      Come on man and and admit it, if you really are in Europe then you know full well that multiculturalism there is a disaster. Just like it is here in America, Why would you want that for Korea?

  • piece

    recycled trash is now the most beautiful masterpiece that the world ever had… is she not more famous than others when everybody talk about her? her being a trash added her popularity… envy.. jealousy or no one of those who comment her badly ever appeared on TV despite of billion dollars expenses for surgery to change their face… hahaha
    not all trash has no beauty and not all phd has the brain!!!!! GETS

    • Ro-an de Guzman

      I know right? Besides, there are Korean natives who are graduates from Korean Universities that makes ‘em one of the asia’s best are still suffering from logical instability, and that is a result of never-ending rote-learning that prohibits them from critical thinking.

  • feafewfwgaefwawe

    Fucking cretin

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  • https://www.facebook.com/soojin8 soojin

    theres nothing wrong about jasmine lee please dont judge her too much…let see what she can do..

  • Ro-an de Guzman

    Well, I am a Filipino, and just because Jasmine Lee is from politically-challenged country like the Philippines, doesn’t mean she deserves to be called a bitch, a slut or whatever derogatory those Korean netizens can call. I am sorry if I can get insulting to the Korean people, but are those crazy-ass-bitch netizens are just envious because their own women could not win a parliament seat like Jasmin Lee did, and she happens to be a Filipina? Another thing, it is so stupid of them NOT to realize that they are still a backwards country despite contesting Japan in terms of being an economic giant simply because they’ve got problems in eradicating double-standards between male and female, Korean women are having a hard time advancing themselves to the corporate ladder, and Korean men are trigger-happy in executing their way of harrassing women.

    Korean netizens, be careful with your mouths and minds when you spew your ill-thoughts against SEAsian people, particularly the Philippines. Seriously, what you think and say will backfire on you!

    • anon

      I think these netziens are small % of the Korean population. The fact that she won an election is more telling than these netizens comments

    • Sillian

      Don’t get worked up too much over internet comments. Articles like that usually draw droves of angry multi-culti policy dissenters and Jasmine is a symbolic figure in the tide.

  • http://Facebook Vivian

    What have we done to you, 레인민트:

    I would understand if we had elected Taru (a Finnish TV personality), since that will be an opportunity for us to learn the advanced country’s culture, but from the Philippines, their political scene is a mess. A woman from that kind of trash country becoming an Assembly member, I very much doubt what she will accomplish. She must have learned nothing but trash politics from her native country.

    even include the name country Philippine and describing as a trash..How are you educated saying that kind of phrase.. do you want we forward all these kinds of comments into the Philippines. Koreans are more than in the Philippines than us living in your country…surely these comments will be widely read in the whole
    world..Many Filipino- Americans, Fil-Canadians, Fil- Australian, blah,blah are all over..what do you think will happen? ARe you happy when people fight?

  • ****

    Keep the mixed babies coming—all over the world! I can’t wait until we’re all so beautifully blended that everyone can just smile and relax! no race, no countries, no borders.

    Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.
    Albert Einstein

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Sergio-Flores/100001028736604 Sergio Flores

      **** lol youre a stupid b### mixed race doenst mean no borders and all that hippie crab look at latin america multiracial people, but there still a lot of racism do you really think all people would love this? ask the religious groups who want world domminance with no multiculturalism the world is not going to be happy there is always going to be one group who wants to impose their culture thats part of mankind. albert einstein jew! why jews dont let in paletstinians?hipocrisy

  • Jeff

    If the white people who kept calling asians as evil racist xenophobes took a step back and looked at news from white countries, you’ll find exactly the same comments from netizens and the “man down the pub” alike. Indeed, you have white supremacist/race hate groups who openly campaign on the streets in minority areas.
    In America there are white power military groups who are training for the upcoming “racial war”.

    So a few Koreans bitching about it on the net is comparatively no big deal.

    • Bess

      And what about the black people saying it?

  • 가가123

    Just reading the above comments make me think why many Korean netizens react so badly when they read racist comments/photos against them when if fact they are also being racists themselves. Please stop such hypocrisy. See how they reacted to the pictures posted by the hollister company. Racism definitely……but what about this? isn’t this a racism the other way around?

    • 가가123

      >> in fact

  • Mimi

    Some comments here are so racist. Open up your minds. Hating on people of background other than Korean makes YOU look dumb and backwards.

    Korea is far from being the most advanced country out there and has A LOT to learn from multicultural societies

  • Rob

    >> Andrei:
    >> Those South Asian beggars who are taking advantage of our blood and toil.

    Really? Ok, let me put this in your language:
    *Some* Koreans, probably thinks like you, go to the Philippines to make an easy buck because it’s more affordable there. They’d buy properties and open businesses. Then they’d strut their arse like they own the place and mistreat the natives who welcomed them in the first place.

    Why don’t people like you just die. The world would be a better place without your kind.

  • liker

    To the person who said this:
    레인민트:
    I would understand if we had elected Taru (a Finnish TV personality), since that will be an opportunity for us to learn the advanced country’s culture, but from the Philippines, their political scene is a mess. A woman from that kind of trash country becoming an Assembly member, I very much doubt what she will accomplish. She must have learned nothing but trash politics from her native country.

    ..SURE! we have a messy political scene. our politicians don’t fist fight. they don’t pound their shoe on their opponent’s head and never did male politicians try to box with female politicians. haha.

  • hess

    ” Western European countries or Scandinavian countries would not think of doing this. ”
    HAH! We have lot’s of immigrants in our Governments

  • pinoy1898

    Some koreans think they are the highest form of creatures….
    They don’t realize that Pilipinos and other races are among the UN forces during the korean war who fought bravely against the communist while the korean troops did nothing.

    • Sillian

      It was predicted that anti multi-culti netizens would be vocal. Take them with a grain of salt. There’s much more inter-Korean bitching on the internet.

      “while the korean troops did nothing.”

      I don’t know why you said that. It’s a rudimentary fact that South Korean troops were the largest and suffered the most casualties by far in the allied forces.

      Hat tips to the UN forces.

  • KCdude

    Happy belated congratulation, Jasmine Lee! You are a proud lawmaker of this tiny but cozy country. It’s been almost a year and you never have promoted any productive bill for us hard-working expatriates. Bummer.The South Korean political arena is very dirty and criminally motivated. Maybe it was horribly a terrible idea that you have become a lawmaker in the first place. This is absolutely sad.

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  • actionjksn

    I am from the USA and I have been to Korea. It’s a wonderful country with a lot of great company’s and great and friendly people.

    I’m going to warn you right now do not follow on the same path that we have here and in Europe. Multiculturalism will destroy your country and your wonderful heritage. And then when it ruins your country the people who helped cause it will say “The problem is we just need more multiculturalism and socialism.” Don’t do it! Put a stop to this shit before it goes too far. I have seen the devastation that it will cause, just look at Europe. And these people will always want more and more. It’s never enough for them. And you people better start making babies, this is part of the problem. OK you have been warned, multiculturalism is like a disease for which there is no cure.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1832474558 Vien Huynh

      Except that America is a country of immigrants… hey, look at Albert Einstein, he’s from Germany right? The problem we have right now is an opened border where illegal aliens come and take advantage of the social system. If immigration is enforced correctly, we won’t have big issues like right now.

  • Jackie Outlaaw

    hmmm as i korean, i don’t really care what here racial background is, but i certainly do hope she doesn’t care only about multicultural families and immigrants. we have a bigger problem called ‘messed up politicians.’ we should start from the big piece instead of the details

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