Journalist Defends Chinese-Koreans, Netizens React Negatively

Migrant workers protest in Seoul

In the wake of the Suwon Torso Murder Case earlier this month that saw the kidnap, rape and murder of a young Korean woman by a Joseonjok (Ethnic-Korean Chinese person), there has been growing tension towards Chinese-Koreans living in Korea.

The below article was the most read and commented article on both Nate and Daum (two of the largest portals on the Korean internet) last week and has attracted thousands of reactions from Korean netizens. In the article, the journalist tries to argue for restraint towards anti-Joseonjok attitudes, positing that many Chinese-Koreans live fairly difficult lives in Korea and aren’t always welcomed.

Despite outlining some of the positive effects of growing multiculturalism in South Korea, many netizens were quick to dismiss the author’s claim, with most flatly neglecting the argument that Joseonjoks can be considered Korean. It should go without saying that, as with many articles featured on koreaBANG, whilst many netizen comments display racist or xenophobic traits, they are most likely a disproportionately loud voice, as is this case with many groups with more extremist views.

From Daum:

‘Chinese Koreans are not the same race’ — South Koreans draw the line

Mr Lee (62) came to Korea 4 years ago with his wife. This was to find Korea, the land of ‘making money’. This is because compared to Korea, as a senior citizen, finding a job in China is difficult. Even though Mr Lee lived in China as an ethnic minority, he says he was never discriminated.

He said “Koreans think of themselves over other people, and there have been many instances where they swear and ignore those people…I just don’t understand. Recently, because of the murder incidents that have taken place in areas like Suwon and Yeongdeungpo, I can now feel people giving me the cold eye.”

Just like the Joseonjok [ethnic Korean Chinese citizen] who committed the murder crime in the Yeongdeungpo job agency, Mr Lee too has recently been fleeced of his money. “They said they return the commission fee within 3 days of starting a job, but when I ask for them to return the commission, they tell me that for any matters over 3 days old, commission fees are non-refundable. Even though they’ve received between 100 to 150 thousand won in commission fees, finding a job is still difficult.”

The level of danger of the recent xenophobia over overlooking Joseonjok is now on the skids. And since a Joseonjok committed a murder, being seen as a criminal is becoming more prevalent for them.

He spoke of how Joseonjoks mainly avoid Koreans and how though they work hard, get looked down upon and are discriminated.

Joseonjok Mr Kim (56) works between 12 to 13 hours a day in a laundry shop. At weekends he works from 3AM to 8PM doing 17 hour shifts. He is resting his overworked body for a short while.

Kim has felt much embarrassment while learning his job. He told us ‘at first, I was naturally not good at my job, but compared to the learning process, I got insulted, and what’s worse, I was told to quit. In China, when you are a beginner, you are taught well and are helped for a long time, so [in Korea] I was completely shocked’

Joseonjoks say ‘They spit in our face’

The pastor of the Seoul Seo Kyeong-soek Joseonjok Church pointed that just because of the recent murder cases, it is not right to brand the entire Joseonjok populace as criminals. He emphasized that ‘ Joseonjoks are of the same race, but even so they blame us and spit in our faces. To say that all Joseonjok are good killers just makes no sense at all.’

Speaking about the many Joseonjok who reside in Seoul, one police official said ‘When Joseonjok get a little rowdy in a pub, they might break a bottle, but saying they carry that bottle as a weapons are all just rumors. Only a minority of Joseonjok commit crimes, but to say they all do is running into deep waters.’

When looking at statistics of criminals in Korea, the ratio of crimes committed by Joseonjoks compared to Koreans can be seen. According to the police, in 2010 there were 299,321 Joseonjok residents. Of those, 10,654 were criminal offenders, or 3.6%. In the same period though, domestic criminals amounted to 1,935,262 from the entire population, or 4% of the population.

The stigma that Joseonjoks are ‘dangerous’ An expert noted that if one wants to reduce the number of crimes committed by Joseonjok, and of foreigners, there is a need to strengthen immigration procedures. He also noted that if Korea actively responds to crimes committed by foreigners and strengthen criminal record checks, the crime rate can be lowered.

Lee Jeong-hyeok, director of the Ansan Ethnic Koreans House, said ‘it is important to strengthen criminal record checks of not only Joseonjoks but also foreigners upon their arrival and selectively go through entry formalities. This is important to preventing foreign criminals from entering the country in the first place, and stigmatizing a particular nationality as being ‘criminal’ is dangerous.”

In many respects, it is also important for Korea to become a multicultural society changing the way foreign members of society are recognized.

Kim Hyun-min, professor of cultural anthropology at Yonsei University noted that “there is a problem is placing Joseonjoks, who are half-Korean, into a separate category, which they themselves hate. Just like in other countries, had we been educated by schools or the media as accepting other cultures, we would not have at this very moment in time this already established attitude that it is ok to express animosity [towards other cultures].”

Comments from Daum:

모비딕:

Before you post articles like this, you should first take a look at some internet cafe [forum] owned by those Joseonjoks. Now who is considering us to be a same race and who is not… Those people are Chinese down to the bone.

흔적우정:

As is said in the article, they come here to earn money, and they are not ignored in China but are when they come to Korea, so in conclusion you’ll comfortably earn money here, but do you pay taxes?

Avid:

You’re right, they’re Chinese.

이것이운명이라면:

Your discussion is flawed from the start. Joseonjoks are Joseonjoks ie another ethnicity. At that time, they decided to remain in Jiandao and Primorsky Krai [both regions being in China and Russia, on the border with North Korea]. And is it not the case that when it was a part of China, that bunch of people deemed it more advantageous to live there? But now that they are one [seperate] ethnicity, to treat them equally would be sinful towards our forefathers in their 60s, 70s and 80s who led the modernization process of this land. It’s illogical to say that we should treat that bunch equally, those who eat our bread without shedding one drop of sweat. Multiculturalism is not just the acceptance of inferior races. Cultural coexistence is only possible when we incorporate a culture with things that we can learn from. Those Chosonjoks are only subject to tight monitoring.

밝게웃어요:

Now this is a big issue. Conglomerates want to procure cheap labor and are in the process of composing a multicultural society. If the rate of crime does diminish, I hope that the many Joseonjoks who live in Gangnam-dong and Seongbuk-dong [central districts of Seoul] areas will move out.

멧돼지님:

Xenophobia?? I was LMAO this morning ke How the hell are Joseonjoks Korean? They are just another kind of Chinese races. Their ethnicity itself is just fucked up, those who came in contact with Joseonjoks around might understand oh yeah except for those mail-order weddings

파란하늘:

Has that fucking reporter ever worked with Joseonjoks? You should you bastard, and those who whack Joseonjoks also whack Koreans, you know that? Those owners with shitty personalities… don’t talk bullshit when you don’t know a thing those Koreans who suffer because of foreign workers – are they not human too?

흔적우정:

Who believes those spiritless and gutless Joseonjoks? Under the pretense of multicultural policy, let’s try to compare who likes the killing of tax-paying citizens with the benefits of having a multicultural society.

vbkn:

Those Joseonjok bastards tell us not to ignore them but they themselves ignore North Korean refugees…… you guys remind me of Oh Won-chun [Suwon murderer] saying that’s too bad [what he said before killing the girl].

세발까마귀:

Why don’t we do things the other way round and ask Joseonjok Mr Reporter. Whether they think of themselves as Chinese or Korean. Tsk tsk Nowadays I’m really curious about the IQ of journalists.

굿샷:

Hey Mr Reporter! You should go along with the trend of nowadays. Please don’t write this kind of article..reaaally pisses me off!

파란마음:

I was in a hospital chatting with a Joseonjok who had liver disease ..He came to Korea to work.. But he said he would not change his nationality..Chinese nationality is by far more advantageous he said…For Joseonjoks, Korea is nothing more than a workplace…

Comments from Nate:

조세현:

They are absolutely not the same people as us. Joseonjoks are CHINESE.

연제익:

This is what a Joseonjok told me directly when I was in China. He said that Joseonjok are just one among many of the tribes in China (the Hans, Mongols, etc), and that he was absolutely not a fellow countryman with Korean blood flowing through his veins.

박보람:

If China treats you that well at work then just work in China and leave Korea ㅡㅡwhy the heck are you so surprised

김숙진:

China you say? ke ke If you wanna be treated well, why don’t you go to China

장석희:

What’s worse is that if you treat Hong-Kong people as being Chinese mainlanders, they get angry. Everyone knows of the backwardness of Chinese culture. It’s just that Chosunjoks are Chinese who can speak Korean.

김영수:

Be it in terms of inclination or view of history, we are not the same people. It’s just that they are a minority group of China.

나홍철:

Our landmass is so narrow, so instead of rolling into our country over and over again, just go back to your own wide land mass

김희영:

Shut the fuck up and deport them!

김지윤:

If you say that Joseonjoks are the same as our people, you’re basically saying that the Manchus, Khitans and Mongols are also of our ethnicity. Just because they speak the same language doesn’t mean they are the same people~

유지영:

If you think it’s that fucked up, then go to China!

김하연:

They are not of same ethnicity.

김정건:

Guide to words that spring to mind when you say the word ‘Joseonjok’: 1) Voice-phishing 2) Torso-murder 3) a Chinese who falls into the Chinese Supremacy way of thinking 4) You wanna beat someone up.

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  • chucky3176

    I think the Korean media (like the above) always just shows one side of the story of the poor immigrant people with beefs, but totally ignores the beefs that the native Koreans have. You go ask those Joseonjoks, if they’re Korean or Chinese. 99% of them will say they are Chinese, and will get offended that they’re being thought of as with hint of Korean. Their culture is also more Chinese, than Korean, and they’ve built up dozens of Chinatown’s in Seoul. Koreans looking down on Chinese? What about Chinese looking down on Koreans? The feeling is only mutual. Then there are the matter of 70,000 Joseonjoks who must leave Korea by end of this year. Most of them are fighting desperately to stay. Why is that? If they are supposedly treated so badly, why aren’t they voluntarily leaving, but instead holding protests and demonstrations saying they have the right to stay? This is the similar situation as the Mexican workers in the United States.

    • Attaboy

      I disagree. Koreans tend to think of their own blood as “pure” compared to Americans. We are mutts and proud of it. Koreans will bash their own citizens if they don’t have 100% Korean blood. I’ve lived in both countries, and Koreans are FAR more xenophobic on the whole.

      • Attaboy

        both countries being Korea and China btw

      • chucky3176

        Attaboy, most Joseonjoks have 100% Korean blood. Your example doesn’t work in this case, because it’s contrary to what you’re saying.

        • http://fairbankreport.blogspot.com Jonathan Fairbank, PhD

          Ah the wonderful korean myth of “pure blood.” Just as mythical as “fan death.” There’s no such thing as korean pure blood. Koreans are, racially, related to Qidan (Khitan), Jurchen and Manchu peoples.

          Culturally, Koreans are Sinitic (that is they are culturally Han Chinese). They celebrate the same holidays and practice very similar religions as the Han.

          Recent rise of Korean nationalism has led to the myth of “pure Korean blood.”

      • Brett Sanbon

        1. I dont think your comparison works.
        2. Stop comparing Korea to America directly. I hate it when people do that. Later, Koreans think all Americans hold the same views as you.
        3. There are plenty of people living in America with a single ethnicity.
        4. Many Choseonjok are pure blodded Korean.
        5. Really, stop comparing anywhere to America. We are different from almost everywhere else.

        • chucky3176

          It’s now become fashionable to explain all these away to “Korean blood” theory. It’s intellectual laziness that explains everything to the person who don’t understand, but he thinks he does.

          • Brett Sanbon

            I don’t know about all that, but I just don’t like when people say “well, in my country this is better”, “in my country we do this because its proper”.

            At least be a little more subtle. Its getting to the point where I don’t like telling anyone I am American, because we have this kind of reputation.

    • Brett Sanbon

      I dont get it. Im not trolling just want that to be clear because of the Jasmine Lee article…. Didnt most Choseonjok leave Korea as refugees? Arent there still plenty of Choseonjok with 100% Korean blood?

      Yes their culture is more Chinese, but many Koreans born in western countries’ culture is more western than Korean. Yet, 1 group recieves F4 visas (“come back home. meet a pretty girl or handsome boy and get married and make more Korean babies”) while the other is lucky to get a travel, study, or work visa that expires ASAP. What gives? Is it that most Choseonjok arent second generation Korean Nationals or is something else at play against them?

      • chucky3176

        Because, Brett, there aren’t 500,000 ethnic Koreans from USA and Canada in working and living in South Korea, nor are there 1.3 million more in USA and Canada, wanting to get in and work and live in South Korea. The Joseonjoks also, don’t forget, grew up in China with Chinese PRC education, most of them if not all of them, were born in China for more than 2, 3, 4, 5 generations ago. They have become culturally Chinese, and only thing that’s left is their genes. Even their language/pronunciations/vocabulary is different. The Joseonjoks, also get special F6 Visa’s that they can stay and work in South Korea for five years without renewing. They do get special treatment, except the PRC protested to the ROK government, not to give out F4 or citizenship application papers to these people because of national pride. The Joseonjoks mistakenly think this is a blatant case of discrimination, when it’s their own government putting pressure on South Korea. And the Korean media keeps exaggerating the supposed discriminations of these “poor” people (sob). Nobody forced them to take these jobs, yet they keep coming by the waves. And South Korea is flooded with cheap wage workers, driving down the wages for the locals who are trying to find a decent job that pays enough to survive on.

        • chucky3176

          I guess what I’m trying to say is, one group is made up very large number of workers (and many of them are illegals) who are in Korea to make money and take them out of the country, while the others group is made up of travelers, visitors, investors, and businessmen who usually all go back when they expire the visa.

          • Brett Sanbon

            Well, If you think about it this way…

            Chinese don’t want them because they say Choseonjok aren’t Chinese.
            Koreans don’t want them because they say Choseonjok aren’t Korean.

            I agree and think that the Choseonjok’s unfettered immigration would not be ideal for Korea or Koreans. Shouldn’t blame the entirety of Choseonjok for wanting to leave China. They are treated worse and have lower living standards there, than in Korea.

            I guess you addressed my points, but I couldn’t help but sensing a bit of an attitude.

        • Vince

          The “driving down the wages” thesis has been debunked a thousand times in a thousand different places in the world.

          • achan

            vince, not that i doubt you, but can i see some serious reference to that? like heavy-weight books etc? that will be a good reference to have

    • quill

      there are korean town in china as far as southern city of guangzhou, then show me an example of chinese being racist to korean??? are korean get discriminated in china??? show me your evidence first
      korean are racist and everybody who has ever been to korea know that and those mixed blood korean are not accepted as korean either.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ave6yOWKlj4

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgTwlB3J81U&feature=related

      • Chucky3176

        Quill, how do you know there aren’t racism in China? Just because you’ve never heard about it on Chinese media who deny there is racism in China, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. There are Korea Towns in China, but you have to realize many of those shops are owned by Joseonjoks, catering to South Korean students, businessmen, tourists, and factory owners who have invested heavily in China, and pump foreign exchange money back to Chinese economy.

        As far as I can tell, South Korea is the only country in the world where a simple racist verbal attack by one racist on a public bus made headlines nationally and turned into a huge national debate, including the victim invited to the National Assembly to testify before the government. Over reaction much? I’ve been screamed at, “get out of my country! you Ch*nk!” in public transportation in the West, but it never made the national headline news anywhere. as I can tell. I know what the Korean media is trying to do here, to take an honest look at racism in Korea, but often they end up over hyping and sensationalizing the news. And this is one of them. Do you honest believe racism isn’t worse in India? Read the comments in that Youtube video. People are saying that’s a laugh, look at your own country, it’s like the pot calling the kettle black, at least South Korea is trying to be honest in the media, unlike most other Asian countries which cover them up under the rug.

        As for that Korean documentary on Koreans only helping tall white man, but not helping short South East Asian man, the control of the study is totally wrong. Even I would have chosen to help the white man tourist, over the short brown South East Asian man who looks like he’s trying to sell me something dodgy. One’s tall and good looking, the other one’s short and ugly. Why did the show pick two completely different control subjects? Was this deliberate? People are always going to be attracted good looking people over ugly ones.

        • quill

          i am not saying that there is no racism in china, you brought up the racism from the chinese towards the korean which i dont see during my study in china, you said that chinese looks down on korean while the largest foreign community in china is korean.
          i had a korean friend from korea whose parents move to work in guangdong. i had a korean frined who every time we go to eat in a korean restaurant ( probably owned by chinese korean) will always get discount or free food just by speaking korean.

          you said
          catering to South Korean students, businessmen, tourists, and factory owners who have invested heavily in China, and pump foreign exchange money back to Chinese economy.”

          by this i can say that you know that there are many korean living in china but has not give me any evidence about korean get discriminated against in china, also many of the customer are in fact local chinese not south korean. and also if korean company can go to china to invest and make money why cant chinese or chinese korean go to find a work in korea??

          As for that Korean documentary on Koreans only helping tall white man, but not helping short South East Asian man, the control of the study is totally wrong. Even I would have chosen to help the white man tourist, over the short brown South East Asian man who looks like he’s trying to sell me something dodgy. One’s tall and good looking, the other one’s short and ugly. Why did the show pick two completely different control subjects? Was this deliberate? People are always going to be attracted good looking people over ugly ones.”

          and that is the problem is most south east asian are short and most white people are tall. if you look at the first comments they say that “we should treat them the same” and the south east asian guy clearly ask where is the coex mall? so how do you think that he is trying to sell you something??? so what this deliberate??? was this deliberate that they prefer to help the white guy?? the problem with your argument is that the fact is most of the south east asian is short and maybe not as good looking as the white guy and isnt that what racism is all about??
          do you seriously think that if they put an ugly short white guy they will not help him?

          • chucky3176

            Unfortunately racial and appearance profiling exists anywhere. I highly doubt if you did the same test in China, the result would be any different from Korea. It’s just that documentaries like this shown on TV would probably never be shown on PRC TV, so you’ll never know they exists..

        • quill

          from my experience i can not agree with you, many south east asian studying in china as well but most of the complaints i heard are about chinese being rude and not clean but never about racism, there are some sentiments against the uyghur and the muslim, but i dont think this due to the ugly appearance or something like that
          while it is true that the westerner enjoy special preference like in many countries in asia.

        • jon

          That’s funny. I see articles about racism pretty much every single day in several western countries. The racist tram lady.. forgot about her? Those headlines were huge.

    • kim

      i think koreans are the worst victims of their conformity mentality. even in school if you dont sport the same clothes or if you have something thats not 100 percent conforming you are abused or ostracized. Chosun-joks are inherently different and they have no reason to conform to “modern Korea’s” molds influenced by american culture whatever. they are proud of their heritage and I would be too if I were them. for me, all this proves is the lack in the korean education of acceptance of other cultures and also evinces how conforming the korean culture is and the “consequences” if you dont conform. This definetely needs to be changed. Unfortunately, the chosun joks are on the front line of this battle of korean culture.

      I think its unfair that you turn the tables of koreans living in korea being persecuted by chosun joks living in korea. Its obvious that chosun joks are the more disadvantaged group. I would say that the only reason that chosun joks are “looking down” on koreans as you say is because they received discrimination first.

  • Matt

    I’d be curious to know what South Koreans think of ethnic Koreans born and raised in China (“Joseonjok”) vs ethnic Chinese born and raised in South Korea.

    Furthermore, I’d be curious to know what South Koreans think of ethnic Koreans born and raised in China (“Joseonjok”) vs ethnic Chinese born and raised in the West (e.g., the U.S.).

    I’m kind of the latter in the second example, so I’m curious to know where I stand in the Korean hierarchy of xenophobia. :D

    • achan

      pure and simple

      if you are from “white” countries like the US, Australia, France, Denmark, you are fine… they will want to get to know you :p

      if you are from any of the “3rd world” countries like Mexico, Vietnam, Zambia, Uzbekistan, then they will treat you like be treated not so nice….

      • Chucky3176

        It is not that pure and simple. I’m getting tired of foreigners explaining Koreans are X and Y and Z, simple. There is no single hive mind Korean thinking, one opinion. Like most other people, there a plethora of different opinions. Western foreigners, with mostly little Korean language skills, tend to stereotype Koreans with what little knowledge they have based on what they read in English language media. Some Koreans think US, Australia, France, Denmark, and Japan are fine.. they want to get to know you. And some think they’re “white trash”. But probably most don’t care, but think they are strange people from the other planet. On the other hand, there is a general trend feeling that those countries are thought of as highly developed advanced rich countries, where the streets are paved with gold and the states takes care of the man on the streets with social welfare services until the death bed. And I have often heard this from other Koreans who have never lived in the West for a long time.

        And it’s easy to see why too, if you can understand the other position. All these people from rich countries, aren’t flooding into Korea to take up 3D jobs by the thousands, nor are they clamoring to enter Korea to replace the local labor, demanding VISA’s by protesting outside the immigration and if all fails, become illegals. Instead, these “white” people are tourists, teachers, businessmen, investors, and entertainers. Of course, the general opinions and impressions by Koreans, are going to be totally different, from let’s say factory workers from Bangladesh.

        So the next charge against Koreans, “they look down on people from poor countries”. That too is much more complex, rather then just hate. Yes, some do look down on them as dirty factory workers. Then there are people who aren’t really haters, but who just don’t like their neighbors changing. Then there are yet others see them in a much sympathetic light, as poor people who are far from their homes, and loved ones, who are forced to work under horrible conditions, so they should be given every kind of break that they can get.

        There are so many civic groups and human rights organizations that protest at a drop of a hat. For instance, couple of days ago, human rights organizations were protesting outside of the police, chanting for the freedom of a Bangladesh man who confessed to a rape and murder of a 17 year old Korean girl. The man lied first that she was his girlfriend and he killed her because she was flirting with other men. Then later he confessed that the girl was a total stranger who he kidnapped off the street, raped her, and murdered her. Yet the human rights organizations were chanting human rights abuse and demanding that the police release him. To them this was a human rights issue of police unfairly detaining a poor defenseless migrant worker because the color of his skin.

        This part is also misguided as well. These migrant workers don’t need sympathy and preferential treatment, they need fair and equal treatment. Giving them preferential treatment and over play on sympathy, mostly in the media, is just as bad as racial discrimination. In the media, there’s definitely a love hate relationship going on. On one hand, these people are portrayed as helpless foreign people. On the other hand, you also see crime statistics by foreigners that seem to go up everyday, and calling for Korean government to do something.

        • Paulie Walnuts

          “For instance, couple of days ago, human rights organizations were protesting outside of the police, chanting for the freedom of a Bangladesh man who confessed to a rape and murder of a 17 year old Korean girl. The man lied first that she was his girlfriend and he killed her because she was flirting with other men. Then later he confessed that the girl was a total stranger who he kidnapped off the street, raped her, and murdered her. Yet the human rights organizations were chanting human rights abuse and demanding that the police release him. To them this was a human rights issue of police unfairly detaining a poor defenseless migrant worker because the color of his skin.”

          Ah, the ugly head of “multiculturalism” rears itself yet again. A powerful argument against multiculturalism in Korea indeed. Tribal theory predicts as tribes come into proximity, tribal conflicts will inevitably increase.

          • Chucky3176

            There’s some truth to what you say. For instance in 2008, a Chinese Korean illegal immigrant man set the immigration detention center at Yeosu, leading to several illegal Chinese migrants who were locked up in their cells, being killed. Most of the blame went to the Yeosu immigration officials, instead of to the arsonist who set the center on fire because he was angry that he didn’t belong there. There was an inquiry and the media frenzy followed with how much abuses the foreigners are suffering, and how bad their lives were, etc etc, on and on for several weeks. In the end, all of the Chinese who were killed in the fire, were rewarded $200,000 to the surviving members of their family. As bad as the Korean media like to exaggerate the “plight” of the migrant workers, if you look outside the Korean embassies around most of the Asian countries, there’s a long lineup formed with people who are desperate to apply for a work visa in South Korea. South Korea has the largest guest worker system in Asia by far, and has one of the biggest destination of foreign guest worker system in the world. There’s a good reason why so many want to come and work in South Korea where they are given opportunities that they would never get in their home countries. In many of these Asian countries, the local systems that pick people for the guest work system in Korea, are riddled with corruption, with forged documents, forged Korean test results, and bribes to local criminal organizations. To brush with a broad stroke that all the migrants are being mistreated in Korea are just insane. In such a large guest permit system, there are bound to be problems

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “For instance in 2008, a Chinese Korean illegal immigrant man set the immigration detention center at Yeosu, leading to several illegal Chinese migrants who were locked up in their cells, being killed. Most of the blame went to the Yeosu immigration officials, instead of to the arsonist who set the center on fire because he was angry that he didn’t belong there. There was an inquiry and the media frenzy followed with how much abuses the foreigners are suffering, and how bad their lives were, etc etc, on and on for several weeks. In the end, all of the Chinese who were killed in the fire, were rewarded $200,000 to the surviving members of their family.”

            It is ironic and contradictory – and deeply troubling to me, as a Korean – that the very multiculturalists who so vehemently defend the “legal legitimacy” of foreigners with Korean nationality – and by extension their ability to determine Korea’s future – simply brush aside the legal illegitimacy of illegal foreigners at the expense of Korean sovereignty and worse – accuse Koreans of being “racist” for exercising their legal sovereignty. This is one of the glaring weaknesses of current political/IR/anthropological theory, as all of these theories fail to explain such contradictions. This is also part of my motivation for developing tribal theory.

            Those “human rights protestors” and their ilk should be tarred, feathered, and deported immediately.

            “As bad as the Korean media like to exaggerate the “plight” of the migrant workers, if you look outside the Korean embassies around most of the Asian countries, there’s a long lineup formed with people who are desperate to apply for a work visa in South Korea. South Korea has the largest guest worker system in Asia by far, and has one of the biggest destination of foreign guest worker system in the world. There’s a good reason why so many want to come and work in South Korea where they are given opportunities that they would never get in their home countries. In many of these Asian countries, the local systems that pick people for the guest work system in Korea, are riddled with corruption, with forged documents, forged Korean test results, and bribes to local criminal organizations. To brush with a broad stroke that all the migrants are being mistreated in Korea are just insane. In such a large guest permit system, there are bound to be problems.”

            This is why uncontrolled immigration en masse is never a good idea. Yet it is exactly this type of insanity endorsed by multiculturalists themselves. Multiculturalists fail to recognize these glaring problems with multiculturalism and globalization they hold so dear to their hearts.

          • Matt

            Paulie Walnuts, just curious—are you an ethnic Korean living in Korea? Were you born and/or raised there?

          • Brett Sanbon

            Paulie. I dont need a really long response to this simple question so do your best to limit your words to under 1000.

            You do know that when Korea was a “closed” country that Koreans were not only at war with each other, but enslaved each other as well, don’t you?

            My only argument is that it is unfair to say that as “tribes come into proximity, tribal conflicts will inevitably increase” (although this may be very true), when it is most certain there is an abundance of conflict when different tribes are not even in the picture.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “Paulie Walnuts, just curious—are you an ethnic Korean living in Korea? Were you born and/or raised there?”

            Relevance? I am, in fact an ethnic Korean living in Korea. I trace both my paternal and maternal lineages to Korea. I was not born/raised in Korea.

            “I also dislike that many underqualified English teachers gain acceptance with Physical Education degrees and the like, not to mention they are taxed at only 3%.”

            You mean, “I dislike that many underqualified English teachers in Korean public schools have a degree in anything from Anyschool, don’t possess teaching certifications, and don’t possess Korean fluency”?

            “I also dislike that migrant workers actually get preferential treetment.”

            This charge is equally as valid against foreign English teachers.

            “Crime, on the other hand, is not as big as you would like to make it out to be. Actually, I shouldnt say that because I dont know the figures. Do you have the numbers on crimes committed by foreigners vs. crimes committed by Koreans (you can also take into account the difference in amount of foreigners to Koreans to make things fair. But lets not forget that in any altercation, a foreigner is much more likely to be arrested than a Korean National.)?”

            I do not dispute this. I will say here, however, that the only reason why foreigners can even commit such crimes in Korea in the first place is in virtue of the fact that they are in Korea! Food for thought.

          • Matt

            So you were born and raised in a foreign country (and ergo culture), and yet you’ve immigrated to Korea?

            What is that, exactly, if not multiculturalism?

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “So you were born and raised in a foreign country (and ergo culture), and yet you’ve immigrated to Korea?”

            Yes, I am a Korean with foreign nationality who was born and raised in a country other than Korea. This is all true.

            Your insinuation that I am “culturally” American is invalid. Being culturally American is far too ambiguous and you have failed to explicate exactly how I fit your alleged definition of “culturally American”, whatever that may be.

            “What is that, exactly, if not multiculturalism?”

            Tribal theory states that certain individuals are afforded multiple tribal identities. This means I can be considered a member of the Korean tribe AND I can be considered of the American tribe.

            Each tribe has the right to determine its own ethos. A tribe’s culture supervenes on its tribal ethos. Korea just so happens to be a tribe that defines itself in terms of blood relations. So your charge that I am engaging in multiculturalism is valid only in one sense – in the sense that I posses a foreign nationality in Korea. It is wrong in the sense that I am considered Korean in virtue of my blood, which Korean culture supervenes on. But if Korean culture depends on Koreans themselves, who are defined in terms of blood relations, I am also necessarily part of “Korean culture”.

            There is an obvious difference in this “shade” of multiculturalism that I bring to Korea and the shade that foreigners bring. This is another serious logical contradiction of multiculturalism, which I have already brought up in a different thread:

            http://www.koreabang.com/2012/stories/xenophobia-against-newly-elected-filipina-korean-spreads-online.html

            Matt, you are alleging that I am American. Let us assume, for the purposes of this argument, that you are true. I AM, in fact, 100% unequivocally bona fide American. I am then also an immigrant in Korea, as you say. Okay. In virtue of my immigrant-ness I carry all the benefits you are alleging ITT. Excellent, because then it possible for Korea to accept only “immigrants” of the same blood than immigrants who are not. After all, Korea would reap all the benefits of a multi-cultural, globalized society even though everyone would be of Korean blood. Matt, you are logically committed to this and I can’t wait to see how you gerrymander yourself out of this one.

          • Matt

            “Korea just so happens to be a tribe that defines itself in terms of blood relations.”

            Except, it doesn’t. Have you not read the article above the comments section? You are no more a Korean than a Joseonjok, and clearly most Koreans do not consider Joseonjok to be Koreans.

            Ethnic Koreans born and raised outside of Korea are very much so PART of the multicultural problem as Koreans themselves define it.

            Each tribe has the right to determine its own ethos. A tribe’s culture supervenes on its tribal ethos. Korea just so happens to be a tribe that defines itself in terms of not only blood relations, but also personal origin.

            Unfortunantely, this excludes you from their tribe. I’m sorry to have to be the one to break the news to you…

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “Most Koreans do not consider Joseonjok to be Koreans.”

            You don’t know if “most” don’t consider Korean-Chinese to be Korean. Second, as a Korean, I say that those individuals are hypocrites and inconsistent, for any individual of 100% Korean blood is – and should be – considered Korean.

            “Ethnic Koreans born and raised outside of Korea are very much so PART of the multicultural problem as Koreans themselves define it.”

            You are assuming your definition Korean identity, which is not true. Ethnic Koreans who cause problems in Korea = intra-tribal conflict. You are a foreigner, are not allowed to use Korean intra-tribal conflict as an excuse for your own inclusion in the Korean tribe.

            Wait, MAYBE ALL OF THIS IS WRONG! Let’s assume what you are saying is true! Being the generous man that I am, I shall grant everything that you just said as being true! Korean-Chinese aren’t Korean! The problems they create just are multicultural! By saying this, YOU YOURSELF HAVE ADMITTED THE FOLLY OF MULTICULTURALISM! This is perhaps, one of the most powerful arguments against it in Korea. After all, IF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS TRUE, if even 100% pure-blooded Korean people cause inter-tribal conflict, then no “non-Korean” (using your definition of Korean) should be allowed into Korea!

            See the logical inconsistency of multiculturalism. Being a multiculturalist is an awful position be in, really.

            “Unfortunantely, this excludes you from their tribe. I’m sorry to have to be the one to break the news to you…”

            I shall ignore these statements, as you are not Korean yourself.

          • Matt

            Paulie Walnuts,

            It’s funny, because although you’re keen on framing multiculturalism as an inherently contradictory concept, I find it exceedingly more amusing that your *own* positions contradict *you* as an individual.

            You’re an immigrant in Korea rallying against immigration to Korea.

            You believe Koreans have the authority to define their own tribal standards, yet you disagree with their conclusion that blood alone is insufficient in defining an unqualified Korean.

            So you’re a non-Korean (according to Koreans, not you) immigrant in Korea arguing against immigration—presumably particularly of non-Koreans—to Korea.

            What a sad existential crisis.

            P.S. – I’m not a “foreigner”—I’m an American living in America. *You* are the foreigner. ;)

        • Brett Sanbon

          Why do you think many foreigners don’t agree on the sentiment that [foreigners] need fair and equal treetment”? I think many would agree. I also dislike that many underqualified English teachers gain acceptance with Physical Education degrees and the like, not to mention they are taxed at only 3%. I also dislike that migrant workers, while adding to the workforce that many Koreans wont do themselves, do actually get preferential treetment (and leak tons of money from Korea).

          Crime, on the other hand, is not as big as you would like to make it out to be. Actually, I shouldnt say that because I dont know the figures. Do you have the numbers on crimes committed by foreigners vs. crimes committed by Koreans (you can also take into account the difference in amount of foreigners to Koreans to make things fair. But lets not forget that in any altercation, a foreigner is much more likely to be arrested than a Korean National.)?

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “You do know that when Korea was a “closed” country that Koreans were not only at war with each other, but enslaved each other as well, don’t you?”

            I acknowledge this fact.

            “My only argument is that it is unfair to say that as “tribes come into proximity, tribal conflicts will inevitably increase” (although this may be very true), when it is most certain there is an abundance of conflict when different tribes are not even in the picture.”

            You are indeed correct in saying that there is an abundance of conflict WITHIN tribes even with the total absence of foreign tribes. Here is where the distinction w/r/t intra-tribal and inter-tribal conflict comes in: Intra-tribal conflict can – and will – occur even without the presence of foreign tribes, just as inter-tribal conflict does when foreign tribes are present.

            Your argument that it is thus “unfair” to condemn the prevention of inter-tribal conflict merely because intra-tribal conflict exists is without merit. You are saying that a tribe is never justified in trying to prevent inter-tribal conflict because intra-conflict exists. It is my belief that even though intra-tribal conflict exists, if a tribe wishes to act to reduce inter-tribal conflicts, it is justified in doing so in virtue of tribal sovereignty.

            To illustrate: if America one day decided to say “No more non-Americans shall enter America. We don’t want non-Americans causing tribal conflict in America”. If I am a non-American, I must respect the tribal sovereignty of America and any decisions made about the tribe by the tribe itself. I cannot say, “Well, theres a lot of problems in America already, so I think it can afford to add some problems.”

          • Bay Area Guy

            Your argument that it is thus “unfair” to condemn the prevention of inter-tribal conflict merely because intra-tribal conflict exists is without merit. You are saying that a tribe is never justified in trying to prevent inter-tribal conflict because intra-conflict exists. It is my belief that even though intra-tribal conflict exists, if a tribe wishes to act to reduce inter-tribal conflicts, it is justified in doing so in virtue of tribal sovereignty.

            To illustrate: if America one day decided to say “No more non-Americans shall enter America. We don’t want non-Americans causing tribal conflict in America”. If I am a non-American, I must respect the tribal sovereignty of America and any decisions made about the tribe by the tribe itself. I cannot say, “Well, theres a lot of problems in America already, so I think it can afford to add some problems.”

            Well said, Paulie!

            Going by such “logic,” I could enter somebody’s house, unwanted, and proceed to become an insufferable presence.

            But hey, that family was already dysfunctional as it is, so why are you singling me out? If I weren’t there, there would still be problems!

            It’s this same BS “logic” that allows fake, identity fetishist leftists in the U.S. to dismiss arguments that mass immigration hurts working class wages. After all, workers in the U.S. are exploited by domestic employers regardless, so who cares about the impact of immigration?

          • Brett Sanbon

            Not “never”, just not exclusively by your standards.

            The hierarchical society which made up Korea into the early 1900’s is the exact same thing that you are arguing against. Koreans essentially divided themselves into different “tribes”. That conflict was as “inter-tribal” as much as it was “intra-tribal”. When taking into account the class system, some Koreans were not even viewed as people by the ruling class, let alone as part of the Korean “tribe”.

            I think that we can both agree that the severity and amount of conflict (between Koreans and foreigners) is much less now, than it was pre-20th century (between Koreans and Koreans). [not that that statement justifies anything other than, “you are only complaining for the sake of complaining, Paulie”]

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “Going by such “logic,” I could enter somebody’s house, unwanted, and proceed to become an insufferable presence.”

            Where did you get this from? You never had the right to enter a house that was not your own to begin with.

            “But hey, that family was already dysfunctional as it is, so why are you singling me out? If I weren’t there, there would still be problems!”

            Because you are not a part of that family, you have no right to impose anything – your presence included – on them. Thus that household would be well justified in expelling you.

            “It’s this same BS “logic” that allows fake, identity fetishist leftists in the U.S. to dismiss arguments that mass immigration hurts working class wages. After all, workers in the U.S. are exploited by domestic employers regardless, so who cares about the impact of immigration?”

            As an American, I am totally against mass immigration that hurts working class wages and thus am very concerned with immigration to the states. I think you have genuinely misunderstood my points.

          • Bay Area Guy

            @ Paulie

            I’m afraid there was a bit of a misunderstanding.

            I completely agree with all of your points. I used that whole “stranger in the house” example to mock the reasoning of open borders advocates and multiculturalists.

          • Brett Sanbon

            Swamp thing- Your and Paulie’s examples (not arguments, just examples) simply are not holding up.

            BAG- “Going by such “logic,” I could enter somebody’s house, unwanted, and proceed to become an insufferable presence. But hey, that family was already dysfunctional as it is, so why are you singling me out? If I weren’t there, there would still be problems!”

            Your example isn’t accurate. Its more like “I could be hired to enter somebody’s house as a cleaning lady (because you don’t want to clean) and do my job. The house owner then starts to complain that I am moving things so he/she can’t find them, and am getting paid and thus taking money from him/her. If I weren’t there, their house would still be dirty because no one is cleaning it.”

            It is one thing to complain if the person is not doing their job properly, in which case, fire them. It is another to complain about their “unbearable” presence with no justifiable reason. For the record, I am not against countries kicking out the people that are not helping the country. However, when I say this we first need to define “helping” and it eventually just becomes so convoluted that only the best lawyers can really figure out what the hell is going on.

            P- “I do not dispute this. I will say here, however, that the only reason why foreigners can even commit such crimes in Korea in the first place is in virtue of the fact that they are in Korea! ”

            The only reason why people die is because they were born in the first place. I could probably come up with the same logical, but still irrational, statement a thousand examples over.

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “The hierarchical society which made up Korea into the early 1900′s is the exact same thing that you are arguing against. Koreans essentially divided themselves into different “tribes”. That conflict was as “inter-tribal” as much as it was “intra-tribal”. When taking into account the class system, some Koreans were not even viewed as people by the ruling class, let alone as part of the Korean “tribe”.

            Regardless of whether the ruling class construed the lower classes as non-Korean or not doesn’t negate the fact that BY BLOOD, all of them were equally Korean. So your insinuation that it was somehow just as “inter” as “intra”, is not correct, if we are to accept the current definition of “Korean”.

            After all, when I say “Pratibha Patil is Indian” I don’t refer merely to Indians in her class, but anyone else who is Indian. The lower classes are presumably just as “Indian” as the higher classes.

            When historians analyze Korean history, do they say “Korea was invaded by the Japanese” or do they say “The ruling class of Korea at the time of the invasion was invaded, but not the lower classes”?

            “I think that we can both agree that the severity and amount of conflict (between Koreans and foreigners) is much less now, than it was pre-20th century (between Koreans and Koreans).”

            I can find plenty of examples of intertribal conflict post 2000. So its far from established that the “severity and amount of conflict is much less” pre 2000 vs. post 2000.

            After all, what is going on in this very thread as we speak is a conflict of inter-tribal ideologies post 2000. Perhaps you were absent when I mentioned the examples of American soldiers raping and mutilating Korean women post 2000. Or when I mentioned “human rights activists” subverting Korean sovereignty under the pretext of multiculturalism post 2000. So no, while current mode of inter-tribal conflict may not be being primarily fought with guns, it is being fought with something far more seductive, i.e. foreign ideology.

          • Bay Area Guy

            @ Brett

            Sorry, but to me, the homeowners are the majority population, and last time I checked, they never endorsed mass immigration (or invited the cleaning lady, if you will).

            I think it is they, and not the big corporations/elites behind multiculturalism/immigration/globalism, who should have the ultimate say in this regard.

            Also, this doesn’t take into account shiftless immigrants who leech off the system (Somalis in Sweden and Minnesota immediately come to mind).

          • Paulie Walnuts

            “The only reason why people die is because they were born in the first place. I could probably come up with the same logical, but still irrational, statement a thousand examples over.”

            It is one factor, true. The difference here is agency. No one chooses whether they are born. Everyone who comes to Korea chooses to come to Korea. They are aware that they must follow Korean laws. This does not include dumping toxic chemicals in the water, raping and mutilating underaged Korean girls, or burning down establishments in Itaewon. Likewise, Korea can – and must – choose whether allowing foreigners into the country will result in foreign crimes.

        • Paulie Walnuts

          “You’re an immigrant in Korea rallying against immigration to Korea.”

          When have I said “All immigration to Korea must stop?” Find this quote and I shall concede this point. Oh, that’s right. I never have.

          Besides, if every foreigner, which includes even those of 100% blood according to you, were to leave Korea immediately and never return, I would no doubt do the same. Obviously it is too late for this to happen – a grave mistake on behalf of Koreans for creating such conditions in the first place. What Korea CAN do is tighten up nationality, immigration, and marriage laws – aka. determine the extent to which it is affected by multiculturalism/globalism, which I argue it should.

          “You believe Koreans have the authority to define their own tribal standards, yet you disagree with their conclusion that blood alone is insufficient in defining an unqualified Korean.”

          Okay, I shall grant you this. You say blood alone is not sufficient for determining “Korean-ness”. I will assume what you say is true, fine. I have no problems conceding this. Then I say that 100% Korean blood is, at the very least, a necessary condition of “Korean-ness”. So it automatically excludes those not of 100% Korean blood. IF THIS IS TRUE, I have no problems with this definition of Korean.

          So…no. No existential crisis on my end whatsoever, friend.

          • Jack

            BAG brings up an excellent point. The free market favors those who have more (concentrated amounts of) money. International companies need cheap labor. China provides this in the form of factories and people to work in Korean factories. International companies also need English-speaking workers…

            The truth of the matter is, Chinese-Koreans and Korean-Chinese can be hired at lower wages. Hence, you will often see them working the graveyard shifts of the most remote restaurants. I managed to talk to many of them, as they figure out that I can barely speak Korean quite quickly. I remember asking a lady at the fish market as to why she’s come to Korea and she told me that what she makes in Korea in a month is equivalent to what she makes in a year in China ie. 12 times as much.

            People are right in saying that many jobs are taken and wages are pulled down. However, without these people, everything will be a lot more expensive.

    • Genxi

      Those are some great questions. I hope someone can answer it with personal experiences. From where I live, there are lots of Korean who came here to study at my University. They treat me rather nice and polite, but I don’t know if this is due to them being a guest in the States.

    • Jack

      I’m ethnically Chinese, borned and raised in Canada. I worked in Seoul for a year. I felt that my English fluency put me in much more different situation. Most of the time, I socialized with Korean-Americans who were really friendly towards me. Some of whom are still close friends of mine today. Because of my asian appearance, most people just thought I was a Korean-American. However, I did take the time to learn a bit of the language and culture. I think that’s the key, really. I was respectful of the culture and was treated with kindness in return.

      In terms of a hierarchy, Korean-Americans are definitely somewhere above the average local. In general, a foreigner generally earns much more money than a local with local credentials (as a fresh graduate, I was earning approximately 3 times as much as a local fresh graduate). Most of the time people just treated me like a Korean-American who didn’t speak Korean. Although when I did have to clarify the details of my ethnicity, I found that they were more open to the fact that my parents were from Hong Kong.

      There are downfalls, however, as some local Koreans are extremely nationalistic and frown on Korean-Americans who have given up their ethinic culture. For example, I was once having street food in Gangnam, Seoul (eating/shopping/clubbing district for people in their 20s) with my friends and we were speaking English. A older man, possibly drunk, begins rudely commenting to the stall owner about our use of English. He says that, we are Koreans in Korea and should be speaking the local language. In my broken use of the language, I explain about my ethinicity and he replies that as long as I’m in Korea, I should be speaking Korean :/

      • Matt

        Jack,

        Not to detract from your positive experience, but it’s not too surprising that you made good friends with Korean-Americans. Most Western-raised Asians see themselves as all part of the same “group” anyway, and of course you’re all fellow North Americans, so there’s that too.

        I can’t help but think that your experience would have been a lot different if you had been attempting to speak exclusively in Korean, with there thus being no way for locals to realize that you’re actually a full-fledged Anglophone. I’m guessing most would probably assume you’re from China (since that’s where most foreigners would be from), and perhaps the reception would be a little colder…

        • Chucky3176

          Honestly speaking, I’ve not heard much bad mouthing from Koreans, on Chinese from Hong Kong or Chinese from the West. The ones who get it the most are the Chinese from China, Chinese born in Korea, and most of all, the ethnic Koreans from China.

          The latter is a phenomenon that has been going on lately, it wasn’t always like this. Most South Koreans still regard the ethnic Koreans from China as “Joong-guk Dongpo”, which basically means ethnic Koreans from China – a tie bound by blood, or same ethnic clan. So it is not exactly true that they are not considered Koreans, or that they are regarded as Chinese who speaks Korean. I guess the hostilities began with disappointment and a sense of betrayal so to speak, felt by many South Koreans – especially on the internet, that the ethnic Koreans from China do not subscribe themselves to belong to the Korean nation, but they seem to use that line only when it benefits them directly. The animosity between Joseonjoks and South Koreans have been building for a long time. The Joseonjoks feel they are discriminated against, the South Koreans say “oh cry me a river, I’m sick of them complaining all the time, if they don’t like it here, then go back to China, doesn’t that solve everything?”. And it doesn’t also help with the fact that most of the phone phishing scams that are plaguing South Korea, are done by Joseonjoks who set up the scams from China.

          With large influx of any immigrant group, you’re going to see ethnic enclaves forming, and there are now several Chinatowns home to both Joseonjok and Han Chinese, especially in financially depressed neighborhoods. With many Chinese writings popping up everywhere, selling everything from lamb meat on stick to Chinese medicine, people are going to be anxious as they see their neighborhoods change, as locals move away elsewhere and immigrants of all colors move in.

          It sounds just like what’s happening in the West, but I believe it’s not the same. It’s not the same because these people aren’t really immigrants, they are mostly temporary work VISA holder guest workers who are not permitted to stay beyond five years. In which after the time is up, they must leave the country and reapply for another Visa if they wish to come back. The system is basically designed so that people don’t stay forever and lay down roots. Because they are guest workers, and they aren’t immigrants. They are mostly young single men and women, with men representing about 75%. When you have large groups of young men from foreign countries, away from their families for a long extended periods of times, many of them are going to be lonely and they will feel alienated from the locals. They are workers during the day, but their alienation and loneliness have more chance of them turning into crimes caused by alcoholism, involving assaults and rape. Majority of these types of crimes often go unreported and unsolved because the foreign workers do not trust the police to call them. So the official police stats are meaningless in this case, and not believable.

          Coupled with the crime problems, there’s also a sense Joseonjoks are here to milk the system but they don’t want to contribute to society and instead consider themselves to belong to China, being loyal to China. This resentment is growing to accuse the Joseonjoks as Chinese who know how to speak Korean. Not all South Koreans feel this way. Most of the conflict is on the internet forums, and we’re just starting to see this spill onto the real world after the gruesome murder of a young Korean woman by a Joseonjok. This was the straw that broke the back, so to speak.

          • quill

            I guess the hostilities began with disappointment and a sense of betrayal so to speak, felt by many South Koreans – especially on the internet, that the ethnic Koreans from China do not subscribe themselves to belong to the Korean nation, but they seem to use that line only when it benefits them directly. The animosity between Joseonjoks and South Koreans have been building for a long time. The Joseonjoks feel they are discriminated against, the South Koreans say “oh cry me a river, I’m sick of them complaining all the time, if they don’t like it here, then go back to China, doesn’t that solve everything?”.

            then how different is the discrimination toward korean chinese compare to discrimination towards says south asian or south east asian?

            and yes, there is no need for sough korean government to give them citizenship, and deal harder with illegals, but that legal procedure is another thing.
            korean chinese are chinese citizen they should be loyal to china, they come to korea to work and for that they should be taxed as well, i dont know what they should contribute to society other than paying taxes because they are not immigrant but migrant workers

          • Chucky3176

            [quote]then how different is the discrimination toward korean chinese compare to discrimination towards says south asian or south east asian?[quote/]

            Not much different. Many Koreans on the net, complain about high crime rates and cheap labor, taking away jobs from Koreans. They say send them all back . The irritation is especially reserved for the Joseonjoks because they’re the loudest group who say they are discriminated and that they should be treated equally as South Korean citizens, because they are Koreans too. In which, few South Koreans shout back, you say you’re Chinese, now you want to be South Korean when it suits you, why do we have to give you special preferential treatment?”. I have to agree with that question.

      • Jack

        My post was to answer your original question about western-educated Chinese in Korea.

        There is definitely a hierarchy of asians with the Chinese and southasians being on the bottom. I remember two Korean girls almost fighting because one of them said, “Oh, I thought you were Chinese” to the other (both of whom, hilariously, were me and my buddy’s dates). Many Koreans think Chinese people are just dirty farmers. Stereotypes are ridiculous.

  • http://onethenatureofthings.net/forum Typhoon

    Korean in a race?

  • http://onethenatureofthings.net/forum Typhoon

    Korean is a race?

  • 소지섭
    • James

      Finally! A succinct argument that doesn’t quote anything back at anyone like a pretentious parrot.

  • Chucky3176

    People wonder why South Koreans are getting very bad impressions of Joseonjoks, it’s Joseonjok sites like this, which are part of the big problem.

    http://cafe.daum.net/yanji123/BjSM/22054

    A 19 year old female part time cashier at a convenience store was stabbed 7 times with a 13 inch knife, by a drunken angry Joseonjok man for not doing as what the man demanded, pouring drinks for him. She lived, but was gravely injured. What’s worse are the Joseonjok commentators below that news story, who all overwhelmingly say “why didn’t that bitch pour the drinks for him? That’s what she gets for discriminating against Joseonjok”. I don’t know if that’s normal in China, for cashiers in convenience stores to pour drinks for their customers when they demand it, but in South Korea, that’s considered an insult. There could be some cultural misunderstandings here and the Joseonjoks think they are being discriminated against, when it’s not really.

    When South Koreans read these kinds of Joseonjok opinions in forums, stereotypes of Joseonjoks form in the minds, as ruthless violent, uncontrollable, brutal, knife carrying violent criminals.

  • lonetrey

    Wow, I know Koreans aren’t all like this, but they REALLY look like racists sons of bitches right now. Kinda like our American people who shout “Those immigrants! Dey turk err jurbz, theeey durrrka duuuuurrr!”, or the KKK screaming “White power! White America for White people!”.

    Or am I just hearing this all wrong?

    • Paulie Walnuts

      Substantiate the charge of “racism”, please.

  • Liberal

    Being an American Korean… I have to say that the Korean society really is being stubborn about accepting other ethnicity into their borders. If they can just accept the other races and not discriminate then there would be less problems. AND also Joesonjoks and Koreans both commit crimes. I think Koreans percent-wise are the worst of the two and they don’t have as much reasons as the oppressed Joesonjoks.

  • seoulite

    Feel kind of sorry for the local journo. Their yada yada is yada yada.
    Not much of news.
    The local media is losing its credibility over number of its social issues over yrs and ended up as brown nosed bastards. Those who are in the local media industry, whether on strike or not, do the finger at the current administration.
    but, I’ve witnessed a number of things-including how Rho’s did handle the media control on North Korean human rights. For an incident, a number of foreign correspondents complained that the Korean police blocked Seoul Foreign Correspondents Club’s door because the Roh’s administration did not want the media attention on the interview for the defectors’ confessions against North Korea.
    The police blocked the interview venue, SFCC’s lounge. And they didn’t have balls to do the crappy job in police uniform. (The police do this at riot control mostly. Seriously, if you happen to shoot those riots in Korea, who bump into so many groups. Both the protest folks and the police. and you do get to know.) Seriously, some of senior correspondents here in Seoul worked even during the “Spring of Seoul”. And sure, Park Jung Hee did kick out some foreign correspondents. So did the old fart, Jeon Doo Hwan one or two. And Roh? The ass is an ass. Come on.
    And funny, at this apparent big ol’ lame of Lee Myung Bak seems to be the only chance these stupid bone headed local journos think the big time.
    They gave up the ethic and became drama production factory. And perhaps it is much better in that way.
    They CHOSE the compromise and became the factory. Perhaps both Pyongyang and Seoul still share something in common, the propaganda factory.

  • Hugh

    Frankly, I don’t think there’s really anything to worry about, at least right now. Korea’s reaping the benefits of globalization to an astonishing degree; let’s not act like they’re the first country to deal with ethnic/racial fallout.

    Of course, now we have the internet and the anonymity of the comments section, which IMO is actually a good thing. If anything, it helps the masses “process” their issues. Where one sees angry bigots spouting pseudoscience and jingoist propaganda, I see troubled individuals seeking catharsis. It’s beautiful in a way – the internet as the ‘armchair therapist’ for the ‘collective consciousness’. Given enough time and the proper outlet, things will hopefully find a more stable balance and people will move on with their lives.

    I know I sound like I’m being idealistic, but Korea is the most wired country in the world. Their economy stalls when Blizzard comes out with a new Starcraft game (btw, I pray for Korea when Diablo III comes out). I wholeheartedly believe the benefits of social networking and Groupthink will stop this from devolving into a Korean “Sacco and Vanzetti”.

    As for this “pure Korea” crap, let’s get real – it’s not gonna happen:
    1) Korea got to where it is through globalization, not self-sufficiency – their tech and pop culture exports are making them ridiculously rich, but at the same time subjecting them to foreign influences.

    2) South Korea has North Korea as the Goofus to its Gallant – the omnipresent moral lesson on the dangers of xenophobia.

    3) The Hallyu wave and the Ministry of Culture and Tourism’s zealot-like push to spread it to the world.

    and probably the most important …
    4) The white man’s standard of beauty is everywhere! – practically every country with “people of color” have had to deal with this. You see it Korea with all those billboard ads for whitening creams, the popularity of eyelid surgery, K-pop stars with ridiculous blonde hair, the media praise for “Western proportions”, the tilted gender statistics on interracial marriages, blah, blah, blah….

    @Paulie Walnuts – as articulate and verbose as you are, I think you’re vision of a “pure” Korea is a pipe dream. Better people than you have tried their hand at eugenics and social engineering, and no one’s exactly praising their achievements.

  • Digitalsoju

    I think it’s both hilarious and sad that Hines Ward is considered more Korean than Joseonjok people.

    If a person with a drop of Korean blood is successful, they are branded as Korean no matter what country they live in. Look at all the articles in the Chosun Ilbo, they always have some articles like ‘President’s aid is Korean’ which shouldn’t even be newsworthy in the first place.

    But because they Joseonjok people are in a lower class, they aren’t considered Korean even though their blood is 100% Korean. Same thing with the school shootings in America, they weren’t considered Korean by Korean people. Goofy logic.

  • kim

    korean independence from china is good for the US. they act like a nice buffer so that china cant absorb korea. good job korea! keep up your independence!

  • takasar1

    “Everyone knows of the backwardness of Chinese culture”, sorry, but tell me who you imported your culture from again?

  • Truck Furniture Maker

    Does it matter if they are more Chinese or more Korean. How about treating them like people.

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