Vietnam Welcomes President Park’s State Visit

President Park recently returned from a state visit to Vietnam, her first to a Southeast Asian country and one that showcased what Korean media are calling her “sales diplomacy”. Park’s delegation signed a number of trade deals and spoke about the prominent role South Korea should play in Vietnam’s planned expansion of its nuclear power industry. Online reception, (from the conservative Naver news portal) was generally positive, with rosy descriptions of the bilateral relationship and compliments for Park’s diplomacy.

The visit also produced the bizarre photo of Park, whose father sent more than 300,000 South Korean soldiers to fight the North Vietnamese, placing flowers at a shrine in honor of Ho Chi Minh, the founder of North Vietnam and Chairman of its Communist Party until 1969. The South Korean president also walked the catwalk at a fashion show in a hanbok.

president-park-laying-flowers

Pres. Park laying flowers at the shrine of Ho Chi Minh

From NEWSis:

At Summit, Vietnamese President Calls Korea ‘country-in-law’

In a summit with President Park Geun-hye, Vietnamese President Truong Tan Sang expressed his affinity for Korea by calling it ‘country-in-law’.

After the official welcome ceremony in the morning, Park began her five-day state visit in Vietnam with a summit meeting, followed by a signing ceremony and joint press conference. Foreign Affairs Minister Yoon Byeong-se said the summit lasted for an hour and forty minutes, extended by twenty minutes from the original schedule. According to Yoon, President Truong began the meeting by pleasantly saying “Korea is a true friend, a country-in-law.” He brought up the fact that there are about 50,000 Korean-Vietnamese multicultural married couples in Korea as an indication of their closeness. Regarding this, both leaders expressed support for the multicultural families to become a bridge between the two countries. President Truong said, “I hope there will be talented second- or third-generation individuals from multicultural families who become politicians in Korea.”

president-park-truong

Pres. Park Geun-hye and Pres. Truong Tan Sang

Prior to the welcome ceremony, President Truong welcomed special attendant Lee Byeong-seok, Vice-Chairman of the National Assembly, by calling him an “old friend”. He also asked ambassador Jeon Dae-ju for a handshake as a friendly gesture saying “He is Vietnamese as he has lived in Vietnam for 18 years. I’m grateful that we have an ambassador who knows Vietnam very well.”

For the signing event and joint press conference after the summit, reporters from both countries struggled to secure the best spot. In the press conference, President Truong said, “We just had a very fruitful talk in an atmosphere of friendship and trust. I highly value our countries’ partnership in political, economic and cultural fields.” President Park said, “I’m happy to visit our strategic partner Vietnam. I send our people’s warm regards to the Vietnamese people.” And she said ‘thank you’ in Vietnamese. Afterwards, President Park, escorted by President Truong, visited the shrine to Ho Chi Minh, one of the founders of modern Vietnam. The visit took twenty minutes longer than planned as President Truong personally guided President Park.

President Park had a meeting with National Assembly Chairman Nguyen Shin Hung and the Communist Party’s General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong at a luncheon hosted by Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung. Chairman Nguyen said, “Our National Assembly will do our best to provide a good environment for Korean investors,” while recalling his visits to Korean companies such as Samsung, Kumho, Hyundai and Lotte last July. He also said, “In our strategic partnership, it is very important to work with Korean corporations. Vietnam is willing to promote friendship and solidarity with Korea.” In response, President Park said, “I’m grateful for your warm welcome. I look forward to a deeper relationship between Korea and Vietnam, which have developed in the last twenty years.” General Secretary Nguyen, in a subsequent meeting, said to President Park, “I congratulate you for becoming the first female President of Korea. I hope your leadership will play an important role in helping Korea prosper in the world.”

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Pres. Park attending a fashion show in Vietnam.

Comments from Naver:

sdra****:

Fire all Korean noble unionized workers [‘noble labor union’ is a term that disparages unionized workers for allegedly being too demanding and confrontational.] and move Hyundai Motor plants to Vietnam~~

foxr****:

President Park Geun-hye, I always support you. I’m proud of you.

prin****:

50,000 couples? Korean history textbooks will have to change. We are not homogeneous. We are mixed people.

gjst****:

Why do Jeolla people retaliate against Gyeongsang province when their region is bashed? Don’t they know the rest of our country hates them as well?

youn****:

30% of our population must be opposing anything for the sake of opposition, ke ke ke ke ke. It’s intriguing that the number is about the same as Jeolla province’s proportion of the Korean population.

lii3****:

Vietnam is so open-minded and manages their country decently. What is the other communist country, North Korea, doing?

ena9****:

The Vietnamese are hard-working like Koreans. Vietnam also resembles Korea in that after French colonialism, they were divided into the North and the South who fought a war with each other. Honestly, I don’t feel very strongly about the Philippines but I definitely feel close to Vietnam. I hope Korea and Vietnam get closer and maintain a cooperative relationship.

fory****:

Unlike former President Lee Myung-bak, President Park isn’t the type who is very outgoing and makes friends with a lot of people..but it seems she has the charm to make a favorable impression on those she definitely needs to meet. I think she is doing efficient diplomacy unlike Lee Myung-bak who was travelling abroad all the time.

gjal****:

Vietnam is one of the most promising countries in South East Asia. I hope we keep a good partnership with them.

jura****:

International marriage is all good. However, divorcees should be deprived of Korean citizenship. In Japan, they don’t just give out citizenship for marriage immigrants. Only their children get it. Korea should change the law so we don’t fill our country with foreigners from South East Asia.

cona****:

Korea gave unforgettable wounds to Vietnam [in the Vietnam War]. Despite that, they welcome us as a country-in-law. Vietnam is truly a great country, the first to defeat the U.S.

park****:

To keep a clear conscience, our country has to be apologetic about the Vietnam War. We shouldn’t be like Japan.

myrm****:

Among foreign workers, Vietnamese are the best. Filipinos are now similar to Joseonjok.

spec****:

Lefty zombies were quietly down-voting Lee Seok-ki articles. Now that Park Geun-hye is visiting Vietnam, they try to make lame excuses to bash her, ke ke ke. A.W.E.S.O.M.E.

0103****:

There is nothing bad about promoting friendship with another country. Why are there many critical comments?

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  • justanotherday

    lol just another “Korea Inc.” Public relations work. “All Image, No Real Substance”

    • Sillian

      What is the ‘real substance’ supposed to be?

      • justanotherday

        One that benefits the people directly, not just some display of diplomacy aimed at marketing Park Geun Hye

        • Sillian

          That aspect wasn’t much addressed in this particular article except in the intro, but the two governments made quite a few practical deals and agreements.

  • Guest

    “Korea gave unforgettable wounds to Vietnam [in the Vietnam War]. Despite that,
    they welcome us as a country-in-law. Vietnam is truly a great country, the first to defeat the U.S.”

    the US wasn’t exactly a victor in the war of 1812 either.

    • Ami

      Honestly, most people (Americans included) don’t know much about that war. I didn’t learn about till maybe last year of highschool I think and it wasn’t much in def.

    • Paul M

      Yep, having your capital city burnt down is a pretty strange idea of victory.

      Vietnam is the only country in the world that can claim to be undefeated against 3 countries that belong to the UN security council.

    • Sillian

      Wasn’t it a skirmish?

      • David

        Korea and Vietnam are usually referred to as “Police Actions” because the Congress of the United States never declared a formal act of war against either North Korea or North Vietnam (the only body authorized to do that in the United States). In both cases the President made the decision to send troops there without “official sanction” from Congress (obviously they supported the actions unofficially because they paid for both wars). .

        • Sillian

          I meant the battle in 1812.

          • David

            Sorry. It was a war. We went up to Canada and tried to burn their cities there and they burned down our capital (in retaliation for what we did to their Canadian cities during the Revolutionary war). They actually would have probably burned down the whole city of D.C. if not for the hurricane that suddenly hit them and wiped out all the British troops. It lasted from 1812-1814.

          • Chris Hansen

            That’s why White House is called the “White House”

    • commander

      If South Korea, one of countries fighting in coalition with the United States, gave unforgettable scars on Vietnamese minds, how huge the United States, a main combatant in the Vietnamese War, inflicted damage to Hanoi?

    • nqk123

      Honestly speaking, US had never been defeated but are usually forced to retreated by the American people.

      • popecchi

        No, the US was defeated by Vietnam.
        The US was much damaged economically due to the Vietnam War, and that is clearly indicated by the Nixon shock of 1971. Its deteriorated economy (weak dollar, budget deficits, inflation etc.) is one of the major reasons it retreated.
        Moreover the US had to undergo economic downturn for over ten years after the war and lost its position as the overwhelming super power forever. You’re underestimating the accomplishment by Vietnam.

        • guest

          Bullshit, the USA got stronger after the Vietnam War. The 80’s and 90’s were prosperous times for the USA. The USA won the Cold War for crying out loud. The Vietnam war was part of the Cold War
          Vietnam is the one that suffered immensely after the Vietnam war. Vietnam invaded Cambodia in 1979, which further weakened their already poor economy and then it got invaded by China in the same year. Vietnam spent all its resources occupying Cambodia, which lasted 10 years. The world condemned Vietnam’s invasion and it became isolated from the world community
          There’s a reason millions of Vietnamese wanted to leave their country. They became known as “boat people.”

          • popecchi

            The US could not achieve its goals in the war, was much damaged economically and had no choice but to retreat. On the other hand, Vietnam achieved its goals though it
            was severely wounded. Overall, Vietnam won the war and defeated the US, I think.
            Also the US was hit by severe depression in 1982 and suffered from high unemployment rates, budget deficits and trade deficits in 80s. So 80s was not such a good time for the US.
            But I might not have been accurate about the wording “for over ten years.”
            Anyway, a large part of your comment is off topic.

          • Rosemon Calvin Pilot

            Not to mention the agent orange and land mines parting gifts we left behind….they’re still feeling that today!

  • harvz

    Praise the Vietnamese and put down the Filipinos in the same breath. So racist.

    • Sillian

      Why is it particularly ‘racist’?

      • harvz

        After reading between the lines, if you don’t think that it’s racist to put two ethnic groups against each other and make one the “model minority” and imply the other are like Chinese Koreans isn’t racist, then I don’t know what to tell you.

        Given the anti Chinese sentiment, there is no way that comparison is anything other than vitriol.

        • Sillian

          I didn’t mean the comparison isn’t demeaning. I just asked why you particularly chose the word ‘racist’. If a Swede praises Germans and put down the French for example, would you also call it racist?

          Joseonjok means Korean Chinese, not Chinese Koreans. They are ethnically Korean.

          • harvz

            I am well aware what Joseonjok means, but sorry for the syntax slip up.

            If someone praised all German workers in their country while saying the French, for example, were a lazy bunch, I would assume that said person lacked the critical thinking and intellectual capacities to see beyond nationality and look at each person as the individual he or she is.

            If the term racist doesn’t apply in that situation, prejudice does.

          • Sillian

            I don’t think anybody means ALL individuals in the group are such and such when they generalize a group. They intend to point out certain tendencies usually due to cultural or institutional factors in their prejudiced perceptions.

          • Guest

            Ethnic chinese residents who live in the states are called Chinese American. So shouldn’t korean ppl living in China be called Korean Chinese?

          • Sillian

            Chinese nationals with Korean ethnic background are Korean Chinese aka Joseonjok. I’m not exactly sure what you are confused about.

        • parvizr

          Some people are better than others. The cause is irrelevant. Stop drinking the West’s equality Kool-aid.

          • harvz

            And where do you rank on this hierarchy?

          • parvizr

            well above you

          • harvz

            Then it is a shame that someone As great and wonderful as you is wasting talents trolling Kbang when you could be lending your Services to humanity

          • Kai

            Please do not use multiple aliases when commenting.

    • Isaac

      Same shite, if you ask me.

      • harvz

        I couldn’t expect anything more from you, to be honest

    • Kalo

      as a Filipino, I think it is about more Filipino (mostly women) are immigrating there due to marriage. or maybe our government is aligning with japan against china regarding the respective territorial disputes.

      Koreans should blame themselves for allowing their fellow citizens to marry Filipinas

      • chucky3176

        uh.. no.

        As far as Koreans are concerned, most don’t care if you’re Vietnamese or Filipino, they’re both considered non-Korean foreigners. There are only two kinds of people in Korean perception. They are either Koreans, and Non-Koreans. That is it. There’s no favoritism for one or the other, although personally I feel biased toward Filipinos due to good personal relationships I had with them in the past.

      • dk2020

        Koreans have been immigrating to the Philippines more than vice versa .. To me, Koreans and Filipinos have always been on good terms .. I grew up in Koreatown L.A. and after the ’92 riots all the Korean families with money moved out to the ‘burbs .. so I grew up with mostly Filipinos ,, very open minded and accepting people, way more so than Koreans .. I’m grateful for Jasmine Lee, Filipinos and Viets are the ones pushing for multiculturalism in SoKo .. so yeah, I do see it as mutually beneficial ..

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRzc2ai1Et4

      • kangsongdaeguk

        yay! A fellow Filipino reading here! :D

    • TAE

      Never same anything bad about any group, their feelings might be hurt!

    • nqk123

      I have to agree, I met more racist Korean than others race. I lived in a very diverse city. they ok if you know them well

    • mitch cohen

      i agree mate.

    • chucky3176

      So praising Japanese and putting down Koreans in the same breath is also racist? Because White people do it all the time.

      • Sillian

        I don’t agree with the ‘white people’ part, but it’s what so-called ‘weeaboos’ often do. Now that I think about it…I’ve never seen them get called out for being ‘racist’.

        Maybe the racism-o-meter is a lot more sensitive when people talk about ‘minorities’ in a country.

    • terriblemovie

      Only one comment praised Vietnam while putting down the Philippines. Lets not blow things out of proportion folks.

      The truth is most Koreans do not hold favoritism or negativism for either country. They view both groups as South East Asians. Most Koreans probably can’t tell the difference between Vietnam, Philippines and Thailand.

      And to be fair, that same is true for the majority of the world. Once again, no favoritism.

    • johnny lam

      so true man

  • Guest

    The leadership of President Park Geun-hye appears to have a recnci

  • commander

    The leadership of President Park Geun-hye appears to be reconciliatory to steer the nation toward national integration ending ten years of leftist governments in office which took opposite approaches in response to preceding decades of conservatists in power, as her summit diplomacy in the US, China, Russia, and Vietnam gains applause, her domestic economic policy is assessed as moderate for a gradual change in her political will that brought out former president Chun Do-hwan’s declared willingness to pay off a huge amount of unpaid fines owed to the government.

    In her most recent foreign visit to Vietnam, President Park laid a wreath at the shrine of modern Vietnam architect Ho Chi Minh, drawing compliment from her local political audiences for what they say is a symbolic bid to reconcile and overcome Seoul’s status of a former combatant against Hanoi as the legacy of her father Park Chung-hyee, military-general-turned president.

    Although some observers express regrets over the absence of her remarks of reconciliation at the time of the honoring at the shrine, her move marks the first time that a South Korean president symbolically offer an olive branch to the Southeast Asian country.

    In another compendable move, former President Chun, a military general who seized power in a military coup amid a power vaccum caused by tye assasination of Park’s father by a right hand intelligence chief, finally succumbed to the pressure to collect about 160 billion won in outstanding fines that was imposed on him in a 1997 court verdict.

    The latest development is credited with President Park’s political nod and backing behind prosecutorial investigation into Mr. Chun’s hidden slush funds that derived from conglomerates’ bribes to him around the time of his leaving office.

    The announcement of Mr. Chun’s famility to pay the fines will certainly allow President Park to enjoy high approval ratings.

    After visting the United States and China for summit meetings in a bid to reaffirm a robust KORUS alliance and allay Chinese fears of a possible anti-China grouping, the foreign policy initated by President Park has garned high marks among the public and international experts.

    Her steps since inauguration in Feburary this year appear to allude to the direction of President Park’s stewardship: Reconciliation and integration.

    However, Some observers say that for her presidential leadership to be demonatrated successfully, it is necessary for Ms. Park to be a more active player in domestic politics where parliamentary confrontation over reforms of the nation’s spy agency and the controversially allged insurrection scandal involving a sitting progressive lawmaker are predicted to hamper the opening of the regular National Assebly sessions.

    It remains to be seen whether President Park will exhibit political prowess in unraveling the tangled political standoff to give momentum to her policy priorities.

    • parvizr

      Can you write in a non-pretentious tone for once? We promise we won’t call you stupid if you use spoken prose

      • Guest

        Well, I dont want to be pretentious as well.

        But the truth is that as a South Korean native with no experiences of going overseas for English learning courses, I began to study written English and Chinese, among other things, for a job I want to get mostly by reading news articles and magazines.

        As a result I have had no opportunities to learn spoken English so that I am not good at using colloquial English.

        In addition, the attraction of written English learning when I read articles in English to know different sentence structures and diffetent idea developments, makes my heavily tilted written English more lopsided.

        So, I want to express my ideas in natural spoken English. But it is more difficult for me than writing a commentary in formal terms.

  • chucky3176

    “Among foreign workers, Vietnamese are the best. Filipinos are now similar to Joseonjok.”

    Not true. South Korean government refused to take on anymore Vietnamese workers this year because the Vietnamese workers were more likely to become illegals than any other country that’s participating in the EPS employment system. About a quarter of the guest workers were staying in Korea illegally – by far the largest percentage amongst all nationalities. To head off the S.Korean government action, Vietnamese government had to force a deposit system to Vietnamese labor applicants. They have to pay a $5000 deposit to the government of Vietnam to work in Korea. If they come back home, they get their deposit back. If they don’t, they lose their deposit. Then S.Korea reinstated the program for Vietnam.

    • commander

      Is there any other entry ban for other foreign migrant workers in South Korea for the same reason as Vietnamese illegal residence here?

      • chucky3176

        Not that I know of. And by the way, there are no entry bans for anyone based on nationalities, including Vietnamese.

  • Isaac

    Where are the rabbid Japanese nationalists who keeps on harping on how Korea didn’t apologize to Vietnam yadda yadda yadda…?

    Here before you, the Vietnamese president happily calls ROK ‘a true friend’.

    • commander

      An insightful comment with satire

    • terriblemovie

      Koreans do not try to hide/distort/outright lie about what they did in Vietnam. Koreans have been apologetic, eager to improve relations, and teach students about the atrocities that occurred.

      And thats why Korea and Vietnam have such friendly relations today. Its also the reason why Germany is not despised by its neighbors, instead its viewed at an important ally.

      Too bad not everyone can be a mature and forward thinking country. Some countries simply prefer being dishonest ignoramuses.

      • TAE

        Japan has friendly relations with Vietnam and a bunch of SEA countries they invaded. How do you explain that? Face it, part of the problem in Northeast Asian relations is nationalism from Korea & China. Your pride creates an irreconcilable position.

        • Isaac

          And the Anti-Korean marches in Japan are not considered a problem? You must be Japanese.

          • Sillian

            He said ‘part’ of the problem.

        • terriblemovie

          The two countries that suffered the most happen to be the two countries that despise Japan- Korea and China.

          Its clearly not Korea or China’s prerogative to appease the other side. Japan committed the atrocities, Japan now needs to behave properly and establish better relations.

          Denying forced sexual slavery, genocide, imperialism and paying tribute to war criminals does not come off as sincere. Face it, Japan is a nation of 12 year olds. They can’t admit they are wrong.

          • Chris Hansen

            I think the word comfort women should be changed into “sexual slavery” just like how you worded it.

    • The difference is that Koreans only had to apologize once, and the Vietnamese accepted it wholeheartedly––no questions asked; the issue was considered settled and the Vietnamese never cared to bring it up again. On the other hand, the Japanese have apologized dozens of times, and each time it is ignored as if it had never happened or “doesn’t count”––instigating Japan to inch further and further toward increasingly agitated defensiveness as a last resort of retaining a modicum of national dignity. Vietnamese WANT reconciliation with Korea. Koreans do NOT appear to want reconciliation with Japan. All masses of peoples need scapegoats, and those scapegoats are not so voluntarily relinquished. They are too convenient a device for propagating national unity and patriotism.

      I realize I will be downvoted into oblivion for saying this, but someone had to respond to your misleading rhetorical question with the truth.

      • chucky3176

        Good lord, the Japanese are truly pathetic, since they can’t see the differences, and they’re using this to justify their stance vis a vie Korea. Do I have to explain this all over again?

        • Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto!¥[*.*]¥

          (どうもありがとう、ミスター・ロボット!¥[*.*]¥)

        • Paul M

          Good lord YOU are truly pathetic. If you can’t see that you are just as odious and obnoxious as the Japanese nationalists are then you truly are blind.

          Attempts at apology and compensation were rejected or ignored by South Korea (look up Asian Women’s Fund). It also didn’t help that the South Korean post liberation government took a belligerent stance against Japan (as well as North Korea) in order to rally the people – claiming to be under threat from the North and the South, viewing Japan as still an enemy. This mentality practically still exists today as we can see from your posts. There was a blanket embargo of all Japanese goods up until 1965 and even up until the 1990’s there was an embargo on Japanese cultural products. All this went on as Japan was trying to apologise.

          So how about you both come down off your high horses because South Korea too has to make more of an effort to be fully reconciled.

          • nitrostat

            attempts at apology and compensation were rejected with a good reason.. maybe you should research why… it isn’t that hard to find the evidence. If you look up Japan crush you should be able to find something. Whats the point of apologizing and trying to compensate with money if later on they try to rewrite and distort the history as if it didn’t happen or claim that the numbers and the events were exaggerated? how does that even remotely sound like a sincere apology? for example, what if someone raped your mom, gave you money and said sorry but later, said … i didn’t rape her.. she was a prostitute… i paid for it, and i also paid compensation money for it… shouldn’t that cover it? shouldn’t that be enough? most people here don’t understand the issues because it has nothing to do with them… put yourself in their shoes… maybe it isn’t about the money, the compensation, but the never ending pain and physcological trauma and distortion of history that is causing the tension between the two countries. need i also remind you, this is the govt parties that keep bringing up these topics!!!

          • Paul M

            Maybe if you had the good grace to accept the apologies and the compensation in the first place then there wouldn’t be an ultra-conservative right wing backlash from Japan (which is what we are seeing from the ‘netouyo’ on Japan Crush). What if Vietnam refused all attempts at apology from South Korea and instead took every opportunity to publicly tell everyone about the rapes and the brutal torturing of civilians by Korean troops – wouldn’t you feel angered by their attitude?

            I get the feeling that you don’t want apologies so much as you want revenge on Japan. Nothing more than Japan’s abject humiliation and ruin would satisfy you. Well we all saw the result of that after WWI when the French forced a humiliating peace treaty on Germany, effectively crippling their country and economy with the forced annexation of territories and inflated reparations.

          • Isaac

            What’s the point of accepting apologies if the Japs constantly fabricate the truth?

          • Paul M

            What’s the point in apologising if you’re just going to get it thrown back in your face? Korea rejected the apology first – then the conservative Japanese factions reacted nastily.

          • bumfromkorea

            Let’s skip right past the part where you are justifying what you have called “unacceptable” 2 minutes beforehand by saying that Koreans have rejected the apology. I’m sure glad to know that all it takes to justify calling what Imperial Japan did a glorious and noble attempt at protecting Asia from the clutches of evil white devils is to have the victims too angry about the incident to accept the apology not one generation after it had happened. The Neo-Nazis in Germany must be dancing in joy.

            Your premise is factually incorrect. From the issue of justifying the possession of Liancourt Rocks using a Treaty forced onto a Korean king with bayonets and gunpoint, from constantly, and I do mean constantly, calling comfort women willing slutty whores and then insulting them further by “compensating” their sufferings by setting up a private fund, to a continuous stream of “Korea should be thankful to Japan for modernizing it” rhetoric, the Japanese conservatives (who, btw, have been in power democratically in Japan since modern Japan’s creation to present with 2 year break since 2009 (the year, incidentally, when the Korea-Japan relations began to improve immensely)) has always been the one provoking their neighbors across the sea.

          • nitrostat

            that is such a hypothetical situation… the thing is regardless of whether or not Koreans accept the apology… Japans backtracking on their apology, rewriting and distorting history is unacceptable.. tell me what is the reason for them to do that? because Korea didn’t accept their apology? Native Americans in America to this day are bitter and still consider that the Europeans stole their land from them… they take monetary compensations and still feel wronged… does America deny, distort and rewrite the history even after Native Americans take the compensation money but still feel wronged?

            “i get the feeling that you don’t want apologies so much as you want revenge on Japan”… First and foremost.. don’t assume that I hate Japan … second.. like you said.. its your feeling.. not mine… third… I’m American… and i wish no bad things for Japan and wish them a happy olympic’s coming this 2020.

          • Paul M

            Yes, their backtracking on apologies and historical revisionism is unacceptable. However the belligerence and constant shaming from their neighbours which continued despite apologies is also unacceptable. So the current mood from right-wing elements in Japan is “why the hell did we apologise to these people – screw them.” It saddens me that a lot of people can’t seem to understand that both nations need to make more of an effort to bring this issue to closure.

          • nitrostat

            i fail to see your point.. let me quote what you wrote and explain why it doesn’t make sense. “However the belligerence and constant shaming from their neighbours which continued despite APOLOGIES is also unacceptable” focus on the word apologies … I think your confusing yourself… how is it an apology if they are backtracking on them? It’s not… its called teasing and insulting especially if the problem were serious… like in this case. It’s called cause and effect. If they fully acknowledged and surrendered unconditionally to the idea that they truly were at fault instead of trying to distort and revise their history, I don’t think the Koreans, Chinese and the rest of the Asians would give them so much flack.

          • bumfromkorea

            Obviously you did not bother to look up *why* Asian Women’s Fund was rejected. The comfort women victims didn’t want money from private sources – it was supposed to have come from the Japanese government itself as a sign of apology.

            And your second claim is clearly false. Park Jung Hee, a former officer of the Kwantung Army, was very eager to normalize relations with Japan, and was a known enthusiast of many Japanese cultural products. Hell, he’s the one who normalized relations in 1965 – the one that the Imperial apologists use to this day to excuse the repugnant behaviors of the JRP/LDP and the Black Van People.

            Again, context is everything, and your analysis clearly needs more of it.

          • Paul M

            I personally think that the Japanese government need to do more on the issue and set up a more permanent organisation to help the victims. However, I take issue with claims from Koreans that nothing was done and that Japan still hasn’t apologised. As well as public donations from the Japanese people a letter of apology signed by the then Prime Minister Murayama was given to each victim. This seemed to satisfy the Philippines, Indonesia, Taiwan and the Netherlands.

            As for my second point I said “post liberation government” as in immediately after 1945 – not 1965. As you said, context is everything and your analysis of my comment clearly needs it.

          • bumfromkorea

            The claim is not that Japan hasn’t apologized. The problem is that Japan consistently has major, national-level politicians saying the precise opposite of the apology every single time after an apology is made. You mention Tomiichi Murayama – whose very statement you are thinking about was almost repealed by Abe (you know, the current Prime Minister of Japanthis year before he was met with international backlash (from America of all places).

            The problem with your analysis is that you presume that Korea’s problem with Japan is a “Past”. It’s not. The problem is that Japan in the “Now” are making these statements about the past. It’s not about the imperial crimes – it’s about how the modern Japanese politicians are glorifying and whitewashing them.

            Here’s an analogy that I used the other day.

            Reality:
            Jimmy punches Kevin in the face and steals his wallet.
            Kevin complains, and Jimmy apologizes.
            The next day, Jimmy goes around town talking about how Kevin was actually asking him to take Kevin’s wallet, and that the punch was just a friendly jab.
            Kevin complains, and Jimmy apologizes.
            The next day, Jimmy goes around town talking about how Kevin unfairly asked him to apologize, even though Kevin asked Jimmy to take his wallet. Oh, and did Jimmy mention that it was just a friendly jab?
            Kevin complains, and Jimmy apologizes.
            Kevin complains that Jimmy’s apologies aren’t sincere.
            Jimmy complains that he apologized to Kevin like 3 times already, and that maybe Kevin is just using this 3 day-old issue to make Jimmy look bad. Why won’t he just let it go like a mature person?

            Your version:
            Jimmy punches Kevin in the face and steals his wallet.
            Kevin complains, and Jimmy apologizes.
            The next day, Kevin complains, and Jimmy apologizes.
            The next day, Kevin complains, and Jimmy apologizes.
            Kevin complains that Jimmy’s apologies aren’t sincere.
            Jimmy complains that he apologized to Kevin like 3 times already, and that maybe Kevin is just using this 3 day-old issue to make Jimmy look bad. Why won’t he just let it go like a mature person?

            Again, context is everything.

            And as for the 1945-1965, if your expectation was that a country that was enslaved by another for half a century+ is going to go “Oh well, that was just last year. We’re all friends now!”, then you are either incredibly uninformed of the circumstances of the Imperial Occupation or shoving your point through what is clearly a ridiculous standard of international relations.

            Additionally, your quip about my analysis needing context becomes very weak when you follow up the quotes you mention by also mentioning the cultural embargo up till the late 90s “all the while Japan was trying to apologize” – demonstrating that you clearly weren’t just talking about the post-liberation government – which, as already stated, is a very ridiculous way of approaching this issue.

          • Paul M

            The bit you’re failing to grasp is why these comments are being made by national level politicians. You’re acting like the Japanese government suddenly decided one day to back track on their past statements. What is motivating them to take an increasingly antagonistic stance and why is there a rise in right-wing conservatism/nationalism in Japan at the moment? Finger pointing and assigning blame on the other party in the dispute is childish and unhelpful.

            Your post is very long and I would love to respond to more of your points but I don’t want this to turn into an essay writing contest.

          • bumfromkorea

            The frequency of these comments have substantially increased in the 1990s, suggesting that the increased economic troubles in Japan correlates to the frequency of these comments. As for the right-wing conservatism/nationalism in Japan, I reiterate: LDP has been in power for the entire totality of modern Japan’s existence except for 2 years. There is no rise.

            Do I really have to write down all the cycles of apology-fuck you-apology-fuck you-apology from the Japanese politicians? Or are you arguing that since the post-liberation Korean government from 1945-1965 were hostile to Japan (gee, I wonder why they were), the Koreans “shot first” so to speak and Japanese conservatives are justified in making comments like comfort women were willing sluts, Korean should be thankful for the Imperial occupation, etc.? Because that is one helluva mental gymnastics. 10.0 from me, I’d say.

            And even leaving aside the actual chronological order of how it happened, let’s examine what you’re trying to argue via another analogy. If a rape victim is still angry with the rapist years after it happened and refuses to accept his apology, is the rapist justified in going around calling the rape victim a slut who actually loved getting his dick, but is just sending him to jail because she’s totally crazy? Is it the victim’s fault that the rapist is going around spewing that crap, because hey, she should’ve accepted the apology!

            Oh, and here’s one thing that I missed up there. Asian Women’s Funds was not a state redress, which was what the victims wanted. The victims felt that the fund’s source coming from private donations was Japanese government’s self-absolution of the actual responsibility (And they would be right). For crying out loud, actually read about the subject other than the Sankei and 2ch sources, please.

          • Paul M

            Again, another essay. It must be nice to have lots of free time to write such lengthy replies. Besides I don’t speak Japanese let alone read it so claiming I get my sources from Sankei and 2ch is again silly and childish on your part. This is the thing I’ve noticed about you Koreans. You are very tribal and clannish to the point of ‘if you don’t agree with everything we say and do – you are our enemy!’ Here I am trying to take a neutral stance and your treat me like I’m a black van driving Hideki Tojo worshipping apologist.

            Now read this next bit very carefully – I agree Japan needs to tone down it’s rhetoric and the revisionist historical claims are disgusting and dangerous. I also think you need to be more conciliatory in your approach and not exaggerate what went on during the occupation and stick to facts. Someone said in a previous post to me that Japan ‘enslaved’ Korea. Of course right wing meat-heads are going to jump on this in order to justify their petty hate. The sad thing is is that both sides seem to be too entrenched in their anger and outrage to be able to reach a peaceful reconciliation.

          • bumfromkorea

            Again, another essay. It must be nice to have lots of free time to write such lengthy replies.

            If you think it takes a normal person more than a couple minutes to write a coherent 10~12 sentences, then perhaps it’s time that you visit your local community college and take some English composition classes.

            This is the thing I’ve noticed about you Koreans. You are very tribal
            and clannish to the point of ‘if you don’t agree with everything we say
            and do – you are our enemy!’

            First, it’s very interesting that you have now resorted to just calling me a part of “you Koreans” – a very race-based viewpoint fitting for uneducated hicks in the Appalachia regions or the Black Van freaks in the streets of Japan.

            Second, I sure would love to read the part where I went “tribal” (great use of the neo-colonialism lingo, btw) on you and identify you as “our enemy” because you don’t agree with everything I say and do. It just sounds like you don’t have anything of substance to say against my arguments, and you’re just flinging personal attacks to distract from that fact.

            I agree Japan needs to tone down it’s rhetoric and the revisionist historical claims are disgusting and dangerous.

            And yet, here you are, defending those very revisionist historical claims by arguing that Korea “shot first” so to speak, because the post-liberation (from enslavement by the Empire of Japan) Korean government wasn’t too keen on getting along with the country that they just got liberated from.

            I also think you need to be more conciliatory in your approach and not
            exaggerate what went on during the occupation and stick to facts.

            Your claim of “exaggeration” is precisely the point where you coincide with the “revisionist historical claims” that you yourself have labeled “disgusting and dangerous”. This is a classic example of self-contradiction that perhaps is causing your confusion in this discussion.

            The sad thing is is that both sides seem to be too entrenched in their
            anger and outrage to be able to reach a peaceful reconciliation.

            The Korean society has been extremely receptive to Japanese culture and her people so far. Their problem is that the said Japanese people continue to politically support the very people that hold dear to the horrific Imperial past.

            It’s so easy to just say “Why don’t they just get along?”, because then you don’t have to learn about the actual historical facts and details. This is the equivalent of ‘too long;didn’t read, but I still have an opinion about it’. The problem is, if you don’t have the time and focus to actually find out what has happened, then perhaps you shouldn’t be forming an opinion on the subject until you’re at least moderately familiar with the details.

            Actually learn about the Imperial Occupation – a good example would be how the average height and weight of Koreans during the Japanese occupation steadily decreased, indicating that the Korean population weren’t getting enough food to eat during the time that, according to the revisionists, was prosperous and wondrous for these ungrateful Koreans.

            Or don’t. If you don’t want to, that’s fine. But don’t be surprised when you find that your lazy approach to history is not welcomed by the Koreans.

            Oh, and this took 5 minutes to write. Man, I have so much free time.

          • Paul M

            Look Chucky, why do you keep claiming I am defending Japanese revisionism when I have very clearly condemned it in several posts. Maybe you are the one who needs to go to community college to get some reading comprehension classes. As for me slinging round neo-colonial epithets and racial language – how about you stop using the term Japs which is widely regarded as a derogatory term and an ethnic slur.

            I like how you cherry pick facts to support your biased opinion. Why don’t you mention the countless Koreans who collaborated and assisted in the Japanese occupation of their country? Did a quick search on your interesting fact about height and weight of Koreans during the occupation – only found a reference to the consumption of rice falling from 1937 till 1945 to half of what was consumed in 1916. No where does it mention malnutrition causing a reduction in height and weight. So until you reference that ‘fact’ I’m not going to take it seriously. Or maybe you buy into the bullshit that Koreans were treated worse than the Jews? Didn’t it cross your mind that this kind of exaggeration inflames the right-wing numb skulls in Japan? It’s funny how you think I have a lazy attitude to history that is unwelcome by Koreans purely because I don’t swallow your propaganda unquestioningly.

            If you want a better written account of exactly how I feel about this situation read this article:
            http://nation.time.com/2012/12/11/why-japan-is-still-not-sorry-enough/

          • chucky3176

            #1. I’m not BumFromKorea.

            #2. I never called anybody “Jap”.

            Please stop making things up in your head. Can’t debate him without resorting to insulting personal attacks?

          • bumfromkorea

            Look Chucky

            Now this is just pathetic, attributing my identity to someone else entirely different. What a literal interpretation of the term “strawman”. I mean, I’ve seen some pathetic display of desperation mid-argument before, but you might just take the cake. Can’t respond to an argument? Well, just call him a sock puppet for the board’s well-known troll!

            Truly pathetic. And you still haven’t excused yourself from using words like “tribal”, thereby revealing your very neo-colonialist and disturbingly race-motivated view of the world.

            Why don’t you mention the countless Koreans who collaborated and assisted in the Japanese occupation of their country?

            And the typical Imperial apologist rhetoric continues. Existence of collaboration does not, in any possible way, excuse/justify/mitigate/soften the imperial atrocities. Fun fact – if you go to sites like Stormfront, the Neo-Nazis are saying exactly the same thing you are about the Jews, the Nazis, and the Ghetto Police. Enjoy your new intellectual fellows.

            Did a quick search on your interesting fact about height and weight of Koreans during the occupation

            Yeah, do a “quick search” on google. That’s going to yield you actual scholarly article.

            Why don’t you find these and read them before you spout off more of your clearly Imperial apologetic rhetoric?

            “Legal Categories, Demographic Changes and Japan’s Korean Residents in the Long Twentieth Century” by Yoshiko Nozaki, Tae Young Kim.

            “The Economics of Japanese Imperialism in Korea, 1910-1939” by Mitsuhiko Kimura

            “Economics and Health in Korea, 1910-1945” by Sonya Fukuoka

            “Economic Groth and human Production in the Republic of Korea, 1945-1992” by Jong-Hwa Lee

            “Growth and Structural Changes in the Korean Economy, 1910-1940” by Sang Chul Suh

            “Korean Reduced to a Condition of Vassalage – High-handed Methods by Which Japan Has Seized Every Office of Adminitration and Left Koreans a People Without a Country” by Thomas Millard

            “The Japanese In Korea” by George Kennan

            But if you don’t have the intellectual capacity to find all that (as you’ve clearly demonstrated the limits of your research prowess), let’s examine this idea. Rice consumption fell sharply while production and population increased. Where do you think all that extra rice went to? The distillery?

            Or maybe you buy into the bullshit that Koreans were treated worse than the Jews? Didn’t it cross your mind that this kind of exaggeration inflames the right-wing numb skulls in Japan?

            Again, your demonstration of your ability to strawman is remarkable. Can’t argue with the actual argument at hand? Make one up and argue against that!

            It’s funny how you think I have a lazy attitude to history that is unwelcome by Koreans purely because I don’t swallow your propaganda unquestioningly.

            You have a lazy attitude to history because
            1. You don’t want to actually take the time to read about the history
            2. But you still want to have an opinion about it
            3. So you just say “Ah, get over it” because that’s the most convenient way of reducing the fact that you have no idea what the actual historical facts are, and
            4. You want to be right, so you resort to strawman arguments and try to paint me as some crazy nationalist Korean by saying neo-colonialist BS like “This is the thing I’ve noticed about you Koreans. You are very tribal and clannish to the point of ‘if you don’t agree with everything we say and do – you are our enemy!'”

            Now, in that previous comment alone, you’ve spouted

            “Why don’t you mention the countless Koreans who collaborated and assisted in the Japanese occupation of their country?”

            “Or maybe you buy into the bullshit that Koreans were treated worse than the Jews? Didn’t it cross your mind that this kind of exaggeration inflames the right-wing numb skulls in Japan?”

            “It’s funny how you think I have a lazy attitude to history that is unwelcome by Koreans purely because I don’t swallow your propaganda
            unquestioningly.”

            This is the three most classic responses that I see from the Imperial apologists. “Koreans collaborated, so they have no grounds to complain!”, “We’re just responding to those crazy Koreans and their lies!”, and “Koreans just hate anyone who disagrees with them!” are their favorite rhetoric.

            This whole time, you’ve been trying to peg responsibility on Korea’s supposed unwillingness to forgive, despite the fact that I’ve addressed this with the actual fact that Koreans are extremely receptive of the Japanese culture and its people.

            Then you tried to claim that since Koreans ‘shot first’ by its post-liberated government not immediately normalizing relations w/ the country that enslaved them not a generation ago, the Japanese ultranationalists are justified in their revelry in their horrific Imperial past.

            You write like an Imperial Apologist. You argue like an Imperial Apologist. And You certainly express yourself like an Imperial Apologist.

            If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck…

          • Paul M

            You write like chucky, you argue like chucky and you express yourself like chucky. I do apologise if you are not him however you are also mistaking me for an Imperial apologist.

            You accuse me of mental gymnastics when you equate my opinion of “Japan needs to do more for reconciliation yet Korea also needs to make an effort too” to “Them comfort women were asking for it, Japan only did good for Korea”. Did I ever excuse the crimes of Imperial Japan? No. Did I ever say that the Japanese no longer need to atone for those crimes? No. Again, because our opinions are not 100% in accord with each other you regard me as an enemy (an Imperial apologist).

            Also you accuse me of personal attacks when I am merely responding in kind and you overreact. You’re accusing me of being racist because I used the word ‘tribal’ to describe the way you right-wing nationalistic Koreans behave. Also you are comparing me to a fucking Neo-Nazi!? Like the saying in English goes – people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

            Again I’m saying both countries need to work towards reconciliation yet you keep saying “This whole time, you’ve been trying to peg responsibility on Korea’s supposed unwillingness to forgive” like I’m only blaming Korea for the problems. Do you understand what BOTH COUNTRIES mean? Both doesn’t mean only Korea, okay? Korea’s unwillingness to forgive is part of the problem not the sole cause. Also if you take time to read and understand what I’m saying it is not “Ah, just get over it” I have said countless times that Japan needs to do more to achieve reconciliation. Yet for some reason you are chosing to ignore those statements from me.

            “Koreans are receptive to Japanese people and culture”. And vice versa, which is not surprising considering you’re neighbours. Yet the problem still exists.

          • chucky3176

            “No. Again, because our opinions are not 100% in accord with each other you regard me as an enemy”

            That describes you perfectly too. You yourself don’t have any tolerance for other’s views.

          • Paul M

            I have tolerance for different opinions, I don’t have any tolerance for people inciting hatred towards others.

          • chucky3176

            Then why are you becoming one?

          • ToPaul

            You are inciting hatred against other people, Japanese Nationalist (aka Matt).

          • bumfromkorea

            Did I ever excuse the crimes of Imperial Japan? No. Did I ever say that the Japanese no longer need to atone for those crimes? No.

            You spent quite a time here arguing that Korea is responsible for the worsening relations, in spite of the fact that major politicians across the strait are calling sex slave victims prostitutes. Call me crazy, but typically, if someone is calling their former sex slavery victims “willing whores”, the public opinion tends to be less than “Ah, that’s okay. We’re all friends here.”

            The problem with your assertions there is that you assign responsibility to the supposed Korean’s unwillingness to reconcile, when clearly the bridge is being burned at the other end.

            Jimmy: You know Kevin is just lying about me stealing his wallet and punching him in the face, right? He was supposed to give me that wallet as a present, and we were just kidding around! Now he’s going “Jimmy’s a bad guy!” when I apologized to him like a thousand times!

            Kevin: Hey, fuck you Jimmy!

            You: Well, obviously Kevin is at fault here too.

            Now pay attention here, because you seem to think that it’s totally justified to just say “both countries are responsible”, and that somehow makes you different from the Imperial apologists. Your moral equation is unbalanced, mostly because your approach to the issue at hand is lazy. That’s why, rather than actually trying to find out about the issue, you just say “Koreans were collaborating with the Empire”, “Imperial Occupation wasn’t as bad as Koreans are saying it was”, “the only reason Japanese politicians are saying all those things is because Koreans are being assholes about the issue”. Because you just want to forcibly balance the equation and say some after school special bullshit like “You’re both wrong. Can’t you see, Jimmy and Kevin?” without properly balancing what had actually happened. Imperial Occupation was fucking horrible. Korea normalized relations with Japan in 1960s, and has been receptive to Japanese culture and people ever since. Japanese electorates continues to elect politicians who whitewash/glorify/revere their Imperial past. Koreans aren’t too keen on that. Japanese politicians apologize one year, and say shit like Imperial occupation wasn’t that bad (which was one of your argument here in this thread), Koreans collaborated so they shouldn’t be pissed off about the occupation (which was another one of your argument here in this thread), and comfort women are opportunistic whores. Koreans react negatively.

            In spite of all that context, all you say is “well, Japan shouldn’t say those things, but Koreans should be more willing to forgive”, because that’s the easiest thing to conclude without finding out about the historical facts. It’s the easiest to conclude that Koreans are just rejecting Japanese apologies out of spite and hatred, because it’s difficult to find out the context that the Japanese government’s apology is always paired with Imperial apologist comments, like a fucking glass of Cabernet Franc and Gorgonzola cheese.

            Without the context that the apology is always followed by the Imperial apologist rhetoric, all you get is Koreans just rejecting Japanese apology – this understandably creates the illusion that the Koreans aren’t willing to forgive the Japanese. Hence, your approach is lazy. And with your laziness comes your apologist rhetoric congruent w/ the imperial apologists. It’s okay if you’re uninformed about this issue – but don’t get indignant when your uninformed opinion that becomes congruent with the Imperial apologists is rejected by other people.

            As an addendum, look at the basis of your claim that Koreans are rejecting Japanese attempt to reconcile. You mention the rejection of Asian Women’s Fund as proof that Koreans are spitting on the Japanese apologies. This makes sense, until you get the proper context that AWF was privately-funded, and the whole idea was the Japanese government paying reparations as a form of apology and recognition. Again, without proper context, you just get “You’re both responsible.”

            You’re accusing me of being racist because I used the word ‘tribal’ to describe the way you right-wing nationalistic Koreans behave.

            The fact that you’re saying “I’m not racist!” and “you right-wing nationalistic Koreans” in one sentence is a very comical example of just how confused you are about your own opinion. The moment you said “you Koreans” in this thread, you lost a huge chunk of your credibility by indicating that you view your world through race-based, ethnicity-based lenses.

            Incidentally, a common trait of the Imperial apologists.

            Also you are comparing me to a fucking Neo-Nazi!? Like the saying in English goes – people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

            You made an argument that Korean collaboration somehow mitigates the fact that the modern Japanese politicians are saying the Imperial Occupation wasn’t bad. This is the extremely congruent argument that the Neo-Nazis make about the Nazi Germany – There were plenty of Jews who collaborated with the Nazis, so how bad could it have been? I didn’t force you to make that kind of repugnant argument reminiscent of the Neo-Nazis, you did.

            And tell me. Which part of my rhetoric is reminiscent of the Neo-Nazi rhetoric? Hmm? Or could it be that you’re just grouping me with the Korean netizen trolls because it’s too difficult to come up with an actual legitimate response? You already clumsily tried to discredit me by saying I’m Chucky – which, again, was just pathetic and sad.

            “Koreans are receptive to Japanese people and culture”. And vice versa, which is not surprising considering you’re neighbours. Yet the problem still exists.

            The obvious problems are as follows.
            1. Either the Japanese electorates don’t care that their politicians are constantly pissing off Koreans, or they actually agree with them.
            2. Assuming (hoping) that 1 isn’t true, then the Japanese electorates aren’t simply asserting themselves against this issue, which suggest apathy and compliance with the right-wing nationalist views.

            Back when DPJ came into power briefly, I thought, “Wow. I guess Japan is finally ready to kick those ultranationalists out of their government!”. Nope. Elected Abe. Re-Elected Hashimoto. Made Ishihara into a superstar. Approval ratings for JRP/LDP going through the roof. Every election Japan holds dashes my hopes that I’m wrong and Japan is ready to abandon its endearment to their Imperial past.

          • Paul M

            What I find interesting is that if I took my views to places like Stormfront or whatever sites Japanese Nationalists have then their reaction to me would be on-par with yours. You think I have a lazy attitude to history because I haven’t read as many books on the subject as you – well I don’t have the money to buy books about a very specialist subject (which are by nature more expensive) and I don’t have the time to read them. So links to websites i.e historical societies, academic journals etc. would be more appreciated so that I can check up on facts. I have read enough books on history, though, to be wary of bias and one sided narratives. Hence my suspicion of your interpretation of events.

            The Philippines, Indonesia, Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia were also occupied by Imperial Japan yet they aren’t engaged in trading diplomatic insults with each other. Korea normalised relations with Japan in 1965 yet why were the terms of the treaty kept a state secret for 40 years? Why weren’t the public made aware of the compensation Japan paid to Korea? For me these things don’t fit with your version of events outlined in your Kevin and Jimmy analogy.

            When I said ‘people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones’ I was referring to your accusation of me using personal insults when you called me ignorant pathetic and a neo-nazi. I did not say that you were like a neo-nazi. Again the twist you put on what I have said only makes me more sceptical of your interpretation of events.

          • bumfromkorea

            So links to websites i.e historical societies, academic journals etc.
            would be more appreciated so that I can check up on facts.

            half of what I cited up there are available on-line for free. The fact that you didn’t even bother to look them up is yet another good example of your lazy approach to history. Again, it’s okay if you’re lazy on this subject – as you point out, it is a specialized subject. But if you want to have an opinion about it, and comment on it in public forums, you better know what you’re talking about. You can’t have it both ways – either admit your ignorance in the subject or educate yourself on the subject.

            The Philippines, Indonesia, Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia were also occupied by Imperial Japan yet they aren’t engaged in trading diplomatic insults with each other.

            /

            Again, context is everything. First, none of those countries have been as directly insulted by Japan as Korea (and China, but somewhat off topic in this discussion) have. Second, none of those countries except Taiwan are that fond of Japan. Third, many of those countries have experienced significant imperialism before or after the Empire of Japan took over – Philippines was actually under US control, and under a Spanish control before that. Vietnam was a French colony, and then there were several conflicts after the fall of the Empire of Japan w/ the French and US.

            Korea normalised relations with Japan in 1965 yet why were the terms of the treaty kept a state secret for 40 years? For me these things don’t fit with your version of events outlined in your Kevin and Jimmy analogy.

            This kind of rhetoric brings out the same dark trail of thoughts that Imperial apologists typically have into the light – since Japan has compensated Korea, the logic goes, Korea shouldn’t be complaining when Japan says something about the imperial occupation. It implies that, since compensation has been made, not only is Japan completely absolved of any guilt – Empire of Japan’s atrocities are also absolved of any guilt. This is exactly the same logic used by “Jimmy” in my example, and it really is one of the more repulsive thoughts proposed by the Imperial apologists.

            I was referring to your accusation of me using personal insults when you called me ignorant pathetic and a neo-nazi.

            You are ignorant of the actual historical facts. You were pathetic when you tried to peg me as a sock-puppet for Chucky (really, it’s one of the more pathetic things I’ve seen online), and you were using an argument congruent w/ the Neo-Nazis – that since some Koreans collaborated w/ the Empire, Koreans don’t have the right to complain about the occupation (one of the more despicable reasoning used by the Imperial apologists and the Neo-Nazis). And then you used the “people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones” quote, which means “don’t criticize me when you have the similar fault”. So now, either you’re just trying to weasel yourself out of the fact that you used an argument favored by the Neo-Nazis, or you are ignorant of even this very commonly used phrase.

            Again the twist you put on what I have said only makes me more sceptical of your interpretation of events.

            What you have said is plainly clear to see on this thread. I haven’t twisted your words – I always quote them before addressing them. You, on the other hand, just seems to be slinging whatever arguments you can think of without any thought towards logical consistency or coherency.

            I repeat – it’s okay to be ignorant and lazy towards the history of Korea-Japan relations in the 20th and 21st century. It’s a specialized topic that aren’t a generalized information. But it’s not okay when, knowing full well yourself that you’re lazy and ignorant, you put forth an opinion on the topic and expect to be taken seriously.

          • Paul M

            Look pal. I have a full time job which barely leaves me time to browse this website let alone search through the list of books you gave me. Unless you can directly reference your claim of malnutrition causing height and weight demographic loss then I am just not going to believe you. Heck in my country our average weight went down due to food shortages too during the war – remember that there was a war going on at that time? My country was busy supplying the army to keep the war effort going and so civilians had to make do without.

            But hey, because I don’t believe that there was a deliberate concerted effort to commit genocide of the Korean people through starvation that makes me ignorant of the facts? How about it is you that are trying to play up the victim complex in order to avoid responsibility. While at the same time conveniently forgetting the role Koreans played in war crimes and the testimony of Allied POW’s who mention that Korean soldiers were particularly savage and barbaric of their treatment of prisoners – even more so than the Japanese. Would you like me to constantly remind you of this fact the way Korean politicians ever since 1945 kept stirring up anti-Japanese sentiment in order to score cheap political points from the electorate?

            I keep hearing Koreans wax lyrical about how great Germany is in apologising and atoning for their past – well just how humble do you think they would be if Polish and Czech politicians kept harping on at them about their conduct during the war despite the reparations and apologies. But again, you just want to avoid taking responsibility for the actions of your politicians using anti-Japanese sentiment as a political tool. As for the Philippines, do they hate the Spanish and the Americans? No. Do the Vietnamese hate the French? No. So what exactly was the point you were trying to make there? These countries have not forgotten their pasts while at the same time not becoming prisoners of it. My country was colonised by it’s bigger and more powerful neighbour for hundreds of years. We had our language and culture repressed in an attempt to wipe it out all together – in fact I can’t speak my country’s original native language. We too have our shit stirrers who attempt to use anger and resentment of our neighbour to score political points and I see them as being just as pathetic as you.

            As for you twisting my words it is plain and clear to see that you are. You throw personal insults at me and when I respond in kind you get your knickers in a bunch. Then you resort to quoting what I say and putting it in a completely different context in order to justify your biased and one sided view.

          • Ruaraidh

            I see Korean-Japanese relations as a Korean man adrift in a stormy sea. No matter how much he rages and struggles he’s not getting anywhere, and he’d rather drown than let go of his 10kg gold bar of historical grievances.

          • Paul M

            Man, I wish I had your way with words.

          • ChuckRamone

            Actually, it’s a terrible metaphor. It doesn’t make any sense.

          • bumfromkorea

            Unless you can directly reference your claim of malnutrition causing
            height and weight demographic loss then I am just not going to believe
            you.

            Hey, I didn’t force you to write your uninformed opinion. You elected to use your free time to tell Koreans the after-school-special bull about how they’re also at fault for not accepting the “apologies”. Your current response, “I don’t have a time for this”, is valid – but only as an admission to the fact that you have no idea what you’re talking about, and now you’re shifting that responsibility over to me.

            Nope! Like I said, it’s okay to be ignorant of this highly specific aspect of history. But again, that also means you have no ground to speak when you’re called out on your ignorance. For example, take your sentence:

            I don’t believe that there was a deliberate concerted effort to commit genocide of the Korean people through starvation

            here. The whole idea is that all Japan did was exploit and abuse the Koreans during the occupation, to the point where the situation went horrific. To exaggerate the implications of that as “deliberate concerted effort to commit genocide” in order to make your own point (I don’t have time to read the facts (though plenty of time so far to write uninformed opinions over and over again), so it must be either irrelevant or false) sound more legitimate is really, really desperate.

            While at the same time conveniently forgetting the role Koreans played in war crimes and the testimony of Allied POW’s who mention that Korean
            soldiers were particularly savage and barbaric of their

            Look at this one. This line of thought was already pointed out to be congruent with what the Neo-Nazis say about the Jews – mainly the point of collaboration. Let’s substitute.

            “While at the same time conveniently forgetting the role Jews played in war crimes and the testimony of Ghetto survivors who mention that Jewish Ghetto police were particularly savage and barbaric to them”

            That one could be a direct quote from stormfront.

            Would you like me to constantly remind you of this fact the way Korean politicians ever since 1945 kept stirring up anti-Japanese sentiment in order to score cheap political points from the electorate?

            Actually, please do, because you have no idea about the historical facts of the Imperial Occupation, but apparently has a detailed list of South Korea politicians post-1945 stirring up anti-Japanese sentiments.

            politicians kept harping on at them about their conduct during the war despite the reparations and apologies.

            See? There you go again, stripping the actual historical facts and contexts, and just shoving your arguments through it. I’ll repeat what I said before, because you just seem to be interested in repeating yourself – I might as well do the same!

            Now pay attention here, because you seem to think that it’s
            totally justified to just say “both countries are responsible”, and that
            somehow makes you different from the Imperial apologists. Your moral
            equation is unbalanced, mostly because your approach to the issue at
            hand is lazy. That’s why, rather than actually trying to find out about
            the issue, you just say “Koreans were collaborating with the Empire”,
            “Imperial Occupation wasn’t as bad as Koreans are saying it was”, “the
            only reason Japanese politicians are saying all those things is because
            Koreans are being assholes about the issue”. Because you just want to
            forcibly balance the equation and say some after school special bullshit
            like “You’re both wrong. Can’t you see, Jimmy and Kevin?” without
            properly balancing what had actually happened. Imperial Occupation was
            fucking horrible. Korea normalized relations with Japan in 1960s, and
            has been receptive to Japanese culture and people ever since. Japanese
            electorates continues to elect politicians who whitewash/glorify/revere
            their Imperial past. Koreans aren’t too keen on that. Japanese
            politicians apologize one year, and say shit like Imperial occupation
            wasn’t that bad (which was one of your argument here in this thread),
            Koreans collaborated so they shouldn’t be pissed off about the
            occupation (which was another one of your argument here in this thread),
            and comfort women are opportunistic whores. Koreans react negatively.

            As for the Philippines, do they hate the Spanish and the Americans? No.
            Do the Vietnamese hate the French? No. So what exactly was the point you
            were trying to make there?

            Neither the Americans nor the French have Presidents go up to the stand and say shit like Vietnam/Philippines should be grateful to us America/France for what we did for them. Over and over again. Good lord, Paul M, why are you just repeating your arguments that have been responded to, instead of actually making a response?

            We too have our shit stirrers who attempt to use anger and resentment of our neighbour to score political points and I see them as being just as pathetic as you.?

            Do those neighbours’ major national-level politicians constantly get in your face and talk shit about how your people loved getting colonized, and that you should be grateful? More importantly, has it only been a generation, and those same major national-level politicians are calling people your grandmother’s age willing slutty whores?

            You throw personal insults at me and when I respond in kind you get your knickers in a bunch.

            I’m sorry, but before your pathetic attempt to label me as a sock puppet for chucky, there were no personal insults. Even for this thread, the lack of context in what you write is astounding.

            Then you resort to quoting what I say and putting it in a completely different context in order to justify your biased and one sided view.

            Clearly, one of us is skewering contexts. But I’m not the one who can’t even get right who called who the sock puppet.

          • Paul M

            Yet again you fail to provide any direct reference to your claim instead relying on confusing and confounding the argument, and to top it off fall back on the cowardly and childish tactic of “I think you sound like a nazi therefore your argument is invalid”. Also I apologised for confusing you for another nationalistic blowhard that frequents these boards, but it seems that Koreans have a hard time when it comes to apologies. Despite that little incident you began long before with the personal insults – seems like another area where you’re getting your chronology confused.

          • Brett

            Pauly Walnuts?

          • ToPaul

            Japanese nationalist, no one cares about your once powerful country. YOU are the one that is truly pathetic. Who needs to repair “relations” with a country that perpetually portrays itself as the victim, is extremely two faced, and lies about Fukushima radiation in order to get the 2020 Summer Olympics?

        • Derelik My Balls
        • guest

          You’re just as pathetic as the Japanese nationalists, you pathetic Korean nationalist piece of shit

        • takasar1

          yes, because koreans are different right?

      • dk2020

        Actions speak louder than words .. what have the right wing Japanese done for actual atonement? I do agree with you somewhat .. Koreans also need to be willing to forgive ..

        • Nothing lately, to be sure. But then again, what have the right-wing in *any* country done for atonement? Right-wing white Americans have the same attitude whenever slavery is brought up: “Yeah, it was bad and regrettable, but why am I being expected to apologize for it? It wasn’t my fault.” Ultimately, it’s all a game of ego that gets progressively worse the longer it’s dragged on.

        • harvz

          If you’re looking for any forward thinking individuals among the right wingers in any country, you’re going to be looking for a long time

      • terriblemovie

        The difference is that Koreans do not constantly bring up distorted historical versions of the Vietnam war. Nor do they try to justify their actions as beneficial to the Vietnamese people. Vietnam views Koreas apologies as sincere.

        In other words, Korea doesn’t reopen old wounds. Japan however does. And thats why the comfort women issue, Yasukuni, Nanking etc have yet to be resolved.

        Japan needs to grow up.

        • The Japanese have absolutely nothing to gain from “bringing up” their historical atrocities. They consider themselves to be RESPONDING to endless antagonism from China and Korea. If you cannot see this, you only understand one-half of the situation.

          • nitrostat

            is that so? you need to watch the news more… obviously you haven’t seen what they teach at their schools, or what their govt acknowledges and doesn’t acknowledge..

      • bumfromkorea

        There is a huge context missing in your analysis – the fact that Korean politicians do not make the comment equivalent of the Japanese LDP/JRP politicians. My guess is, after Park Geun Hye visited Vietnam, she did not go back to Korea and say something like “those Vietnamese villagers were just asking for it.” in public.

        This is a classic misconception held by people who claim that Japan apologized “enough” and Koreans just don’t want reconciliation. It happens especially when the people in question aren’t that well-versed in the modern history of the region, while believing themselves to be very informed of the issue.

        Reality:
        Jimmy punches Kevin in the face and steals his wallet.
        Kevin complains, and Jimmy apologizes.
        The next day, Jimmy goes around town talking about how Kevin was actually asking him to take Kevin’s wallet, and that the punch was just a friendly jab.
        Kevin complains, and Jimmy apologizes.
        The next day, Jimmy goes around town talking about how Kevin unfairly asked him to apologize, even though Kevin asked Jimmy to take his wallet. Oh, and did Jimmy mention that it was just a friendly jab?
        Kevin complains, and Jimmy apologizes.
        Kevin complains that Jimmy’s apologies aren’t sincere.
        Jimmy complains that he apologizes to Kevin like 3 times already, and that maybe Kevin is just using this 3 day-old issue to make Jimmy look bad.

        Your version:
        Jimmy punches Kevin in the face and steals his wallet.
        Kevin complains, and Jimmy apologizes.
        The next day, Kevin complains, and Jimmy apologizes.
        The next day, Kevin complains, and Jimmy apologizes.
        Kevin complains that Jimmy’s apologies aren’t sincere.
        Jimmy complains that he apologizes to Kevin like 3 times already, and that maybe Kevin is just using this 3 day-old issue to make Jimmy look bad.

        The classic apologist response to this is that only crazy fringe Japanese politicians do this. Well, if you want to call the mayor of Osaka, head of the JRP and the ex-mayor of Tokyo, and the Prime Minister crazy fringe Japanese politicians, I’d only have issue with the word “fringe”.

        • The genuine reality is somewhere in between those two scenarios. The Japanese are not doing everything they can to repair relations, but neither are the Koreans. Lots of conservative white Americans who aren’t otherwise racist are becoming fed up with being made to feel like they’re responsible for slavery. Lots of Muslims who aren’t otherwise radicals are becoming fed up with being made to feel like they’re responsible for terrorism. This concept is universal, and it persists because people have too much pride to altruistically take the high road.

          • bumfromkorea

            I’d disagree with that as well. Korean people, outrage towards the conservative Japan politics aside, are extremely receptive towards the Japanese culture and product. If the issue was “those f*cking Japanese… god, I hate them!” from the Korean side, this would not happen. A good example would be the Japanese comic “Slam Dunk”, which is about 50% responsible for Korean Basketball League’s existence. Another would be the immense popularity of Odagiri Joe in Korea, even when he was portraying a sympathetic version of an Imperial officer in the movie My Way. Korean celebrities marry Japanese men and women all the time with no public backlash about “How could you marry those Japanese bastards?!” or something. Japan is an extremely popular vacation destination for Koreans, in spite of the unfavorable exchange rate that makes the trip extra expensive. Overseas, most Koreans prefer Toyota/Honda over Hyundai because of the difference in reliability – another phenomenon that would be impossible if Koreans as a society are not ready to reconcile with the Japanese.

            The Slavery example is not an appropriate comparison; in America, if a politician says something along the line of “Black Americans should be grateful for slavery – otherwise, they’d be stuck in Africa by now.”, he or she will be kicked out of office faster than you can say “He said what?!” In Japan, the guys who says the equivalent of the Showa era gets elected to major national posts (like, again, the seat of Prime Minister).

            It’s also not an appropriate example because the issue at hand with the JRP/LDP isn’t the Imperial crimes itself – it’s how they are expressing opinions on the Imperial crimes. If Angela Merkel went up there and said “Hitler was the best thing ever to happen to Poland” or something, Merkel isn’t going to be pelted with being the Nazis who committed the atrocities; she’s going to be pelted for talking about the Nazis in that fashion.

            This is another frequent misconception; the issue of guilt arises not from the Imperial crimes itself, but how that Imperial crimes have been revered, praised, and beautified by the modern Japanese politicians and the Japanese electorates who vote for them.

            The Muslim example is also inappropriate because of the simple math problem – the Islamist/Militant to Muslim ratio is incredibly small (1:500,000 or something along that line). In Japan, the people who are expressing the Imperial apologist rhetoric are the political majority. I firmly believed, before the era of Abe and Ishihara, that Japan was indeed plagued by tiny minority fringe politicians who were being magnified by their loud voices. But this can no longer hold logically when national posts are filled with politicians who regularly express such despicable interpretation of history. About a quarter of the legislative body visited a shrine that also runs Yushukan like Disneyland runs California Adventure. This is not how a fringe crazy minority present itself in the world.

          • Isaac

            Half of the things you said here are just plain lies. lol

            I’ve seen more Korean/German cars than Japanese. And who the fcuk is Odagiri Joe?

          • bumfromkorea

            You might want to specify which part of what I said were “just plain lies” with counter-evidences. I’m afraid “lol” is insufficient.

            In America, Koreans tend to prefer Toyota/Honda over Hyundai – the former two loses value significantly slower than the latter. When they are rich enough, they prefer Lexus/BMW/Benz over… Hyundai. They don’t even touch Kia.

            If you don’t know who Odagiri Joe is, then obviously you are not too familiar with either Korean or Japanese popular culture – and therefore making you a very unreliable source of meaningful analysis and argument on this topic.

          • Isaac

            Dude, are you serious? We’re talking about Korea not the US. I’ve lived my whole life in Busan so I’m pretty much know what I’m talking about. Sadly, not many Koreans that I know of are interested in Japanese pop music or dramas.

          • bumfromkorea

            Overseas, most Koreans prefer Toyota/Honda over Hyundai because of the
            difference in reliability – another phenomenon that would be impossible
            if Koreans as a society are not ready to reconcile with the Japanese.

            Then you have not read my comment carefully.

            Busan is the Mecca of Japanese import, cultural and otherwise, to Korea, so you must have an incredibly shallow understanding of your surroundings. This is akin to living in Phoenix and going “Hispanic culture? What Hispanic culture? I didn’t notice anything here!”

            Search “Odagiri Joe” in Korean at one of the Korean net portals. Then you’ll see what I’m talking about.

            I’m still waiting for the evidences that half of what I said were plain lies.

          • Isaac

            I did. But we’re talking about Koreans in Korea. Not gyopos like yourself. There’s an obvious difference in the way you and I were brought up.

            Wow. Odajiri Joe is in the Korean portals. He must be famous in Korea! Like how Kyary Pamyu shite is on the nets. Jpop must be played in every restaurant in Korea! Please, you have outdone yourself in this one. I applaud you for that.

            Mecca for Japanese import and culture? lmao! The only thing I see are Japanese tourists.

          • bumfromkorea

            But we’re talking about Koreans in Korea. Not gyopos like yourself.

            You’re the one who interjected yourself to this conversation using a sentence from me that specifically discussed the Koreans overseas. You don’t get to decide what “we” are talking about at that point, because the start of the conversation started as “Overseas, Koreans…”

            Wow. Odajiri Joe is in the Korean portals. He must be famous in Korea!

            He IS famous in Korea. Jaurim’s lead singer’s favorite actor, starred in a huge budget movie with Jang Dong Geun – Your attempt to discredit my argument by wildly exaggerating the implications (“Like how Kyary Pamyu shite is on the nets. Jpop must be played in every restaurant in Korea!”) is a strong sign that you don’t know how to properly discredit my argument – just a false-posturing sentences like “Please, you have outdone yourself in this one. I applaud you for that.”.

            Mecca for Japanese import and culture? lmao! The only thing I see are Japanese tourists.

            “lmao!”, like “lol”, is not a valid counter-evidence, nor is your personal observation which is already in question in terms of depth.

            And I’m still waiting for the evidences that what I said above are plain lies. Patiently, but not for long. And just as a reminder, “lol” “lmao” and “rofl” are not an acceptable form of explaining why what I said were “plain lies”.

            Let’s add some more fun examples of how Japanese culture is popular in Korea. Ask any 20 something Koreans to sing their favorite childhood songs. You’re going to hear either the opening song to Hono no Tokyuji Dodge Danpei or Moero! Toppu Sutoraika. Everyone’s favorite classic comics? Dragonball, Hokuto no Ken, Slam Dunk, or Sailor Moon depending on the gender.

            Oh, and what about 화투? 추석’s coming up. How many people will be playing Hanafuda with their extended family this year?

            It’s very clear that Japanese culture is popular in Korea – indicating that Koreans in general are very willing to make friends with the Japanese if they would just stop glorifying their horrific Imperial past and take proper steps to make amends – Germany is a great example, where they are so Nazi-phobic, even the Producers was almost banned.

          • Isaac

            You’re blowing this out of proportion. Just because some Koreans watches Pokemon when they were younger doesn’t mean they like the cartoons now. If I choose to eat a Big Mac one day, does that mean American ‘culture’ is popular in Korea? :)

          • bumfromkorea

            Uh… American culture IS popular in Korea. And your example of eating Big Mac one day is yet another ridiculous attempt at false comparison – you’re equating an incredibly popular childhood cartoons that everyone in one set of generation watched with one Big Mac.

            You know what that is?

            “Dora the Explorer will have a significant impact in American culture – every kid in America is watching it now.”
            “Yeah, right. I had a hummus the other day – does that mean Middle East culture has a significant impact in America as well?”

            Sounds ridiculous? That’s exactly the argument you made just now.

            And now you want to talk about proportionality, after completely blowing up the implications of my argument for three comments straight. The argument is that Koreans are quite receptive to Japanese culture, and therefore demonstrates that the Koreans’ problems with Japan isn’t racial or cultural, but political – specifically the unapologetic reverence and whitewashing of Japan’s Imperial past.

            You chose to call me a liar on that comment, then chose to just focus the part where I said Koreans like Japanese culture. Then you try to make my argument to something equivalent of “JPop songs playing in every Korean restaurants”, when clearly the point is that the Japanese popular culture has always received a warm welcome in Korea – Again, demonstrating that the beef Koreans have with the Japanese is purely political centered around one issue. This is a textbook example of strawman – you can’t make a rebuttal against the actual argument, so you manufacture a weaker, false one and argue against that.

            And as you can probably tell, my patience has worn out. Either provide counter-evidences that I’m a “plain” liar, or prove that you’re not worth engaging by providing yet another ridiculous comparisons.

          • chucky3176

            That’s in America. In Korea, Japanese cars have seen dwindling interest, even with huge discounts and lower value of the Japanese currency.

            http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2013/09/388_142650.html

          • bumfromkorea

            Yes, I understand that. I’m saying that under the right economic circumstances (abroad, where it’s economically favorable to buy Toyota/Honda b/c their values deteriorate extremely slowly), Koreans prefer Japanese cars over Hyundai –> demonstrating that Koreans’ displeasure with Japan ends at its government and its stances on Japan’s Imperial past.

          • chucky3176

            Koreans hate Japanese government and their policies based on racial politics and historical distortions. However Koreans don’t disrespect nor hate Japanese people. On the other hand, the Japanese who hate Koreans, they hate due to racial reasons.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MgvfMHYYv2E

            It figures that the head of the small group of anti-racist activists which was a big deal several weeks back, is actually a Zainichi Korean. No real big surprise there that it wasn’t a pure Japanese.

          • nitrostat

            there is a HUGE difference between what the public believes and what the Govt should acknowledge. you’re suggestion that White Americans that aren’t otherwise racist today shouldn’t feel like they should be held accountable for slavery is correct… they shouldn’t. BUT that doesn’t mean the govt should disregard the history behind it like you see with Japan…. and you don’t even see racist white people coming up and saying ” we never enslaved black people”. No one is suggesting that the modern Japanese be held accountable for the past actions during WWII. you see… the difference with Japan is their constant denial and persistence in trying to distort and revise a history that many other countries excluding japan have come to realize as a part of history.

        • terriblemovie

          Perfect analogy bumfromkorea.

          The Japs are full of themselves if they believe their apologies mean anything. Actions do in fact speak louder than words.

      • commander

        A startling comment masking the truth.

        The question you have to ask yourself is that Japanese frequent flip flops of its past colonialism and militarism, and peoples in neighboring countries have to but to choice to doubt why some Japanese politicans made incendiary remarks repudiating the existence of atrocities Japan commited during its imperialism as they think Japan where those inflammatory words are uttered repeatedly without condemnation there has a distorted conception of its past hisotry.

        And in the case of Korea which was under the 36 year old colonial rule by Japan, Japan’s unapologetic stance on colonial matters, as attested by Tokyo’s revision of history textbooks removing sex enslavements and other war crimes, and rejection of compensation for compensation for those trampled on by Japan’s Imperial Army etc., are profoundly offending to Seoul and other victimized countries.

      • commander

        The biggest bewilderment is that a person crudsading for what he thinks is a righteous cause claims a false statement is true in defiance of what he views is misleading opposition.

        It’s too sad.

      • justanotherday

        The animosity for Japan lies far more deeply ingrained in Korean culture and history. ROK was in Vietnam for a couple of years and was out, and they didn’t really do this by choice, President Park was coerced into proving himself to Carter administration before they were about to pull troops out of Korea.

        • chucky3176

          Again wrong. President Park was extremely happy to give South Korean services to Vietnam. Park actually offered up his forces in 1961 to Vietnam to help and beef up the US presences which at that time was just beginning, in a meeting with President Kennedy. Kennedy at that time, declined. But when Lyndon Johnson got the American forces directly involved in Gulf Of Tonkin incident, he was looking for more flags operation, and gladly took Park’s second offer to the US. The Korean forces began to deploy in 1964. The documents from the national archives found there were several reasons why Park offered to the US, South Korean involvement. The reasons were a mixture of economic opportunism through fat construction/manufacturing contracts, US military/economic aid to Korea, genuine hatred/fear/bad memory of Communism, and to prevent US plans to withdraw their military forces from South Korea.

          • justanotherday

            those are all fine and dandy but we all know which is the real reason, prevent US plans to withdraw military forces from South Korea as you’ve said. This is a coercion, you don’t back us in our war, maybe we’ll pull out and you handle the defence on your own.

          • chucky3176

            I don’t see that coercion at all. It’s a case of you scratch my back, and I’ll scratch yours. Give and take. Both looking out for their own national interests, I don’t see what the problem is.

      • nitrostat

        “it doesn’t count and it is ignored as if it had never happened for a reason.” It’s called their govt formally denies the existence that it ever happened… further more, they teach their future generations that it never happened…obviously the Koreans are going to think its an apology with no meaning. its not about Koreans not wanting reconciliation… its about cause and effect… remember, its not only the Koreans that feel this way about Japan… why do you think that is?

      • markus peg

        I’m not here to personally take sides, but the way i see it they (The Japanese government) apologised for some things, fair enough, but the other half they hide, wont admit to and don’t teach the young Japanese about. That’s where the main problem lies for many Chinese and Koreans. on top of that, China, Korea and Japan have disputed islands some of which are a direct result of WW2.

        Bringing in other counties into the debate doesn’t really help the situation. They are not quite the same as Japan-Korea and China.

    • nqk123

      Not defending Japan, but Korea had never officially apologized to Vietnam. Japan on the other hand, did made official apologies to nations it invaded and also paid to rebuild its.

      • bumfromkorea

        President Kim Dae joong officially apologized and offered an official apology in a form of a legislative resolution. Vietnamese president at the time said thanks for the offer, but we’re cool.

        • nqk123

          if that the case, sorry, my bad

      • chucky3176

        South Korea fought for the South Vietnamese, at the behest of the South Vietnamese government and the US government, where 5000 South Koreans soldiers died defending South Vietnam, and whom most served honorably. It’s far different from Japan’s case where they forcibly colonized a country, systematically mass enslaved men and women into wars, ran germ warfare, and robbed Korea of its natural resources. And now Japan claim they did none of that, and attempt to divert the attention away from them, by bringing up the subject of Korean soldiers in Vietnam which deserves no comparison whatsoever.

        Apples and Grapefruits.

        • justanotherday

          >It’s far different from Japan’s case where they forcibly colonized a country, systematically mass enslaved men and women into wars, ran germ warfare, and robbed Korea of its natural resources

          Except that United States is able to do this with a large contingent force in both Korea and Japan.

          • chucky3176

            Huh? United States isn’t forcing themselves on Korea and Japan. US military presence is only as long as Korea and Japan allows it. Military presence at the request of invites does not equate to outright colonizations and invasions.

          • justanotherday

            That’s exactly what they said when Japanese came.

        • bumfromkorea

          A fair point.

  • parvizr

    At least the Vietnamese are culturally closer to North Asians because of historical Chinese colonization, and will emphasize social climbing and money.

    Start importing the other types of Southeast Asians and they will just remain a large underclass of maids and nannies and activists for such without ever contributing anything to your country except their labor.

  • commander

    My question is: as South Korean news media outlets say that President Park who paid a tribute at the grave of Ho Chi Minh during her visit to Vietnam deserves praise for her bid to mend fences with Hanoi, do the Vietnamese really think highly of President Park’s move?

    I was wondering how ordienay people in Vietnam think about it.

    • commander

      Checking on reactions of the Vietnamese to President Park’s state visit requires search and reading of Hanoi-based English news media reports.

      By the way, too much talk about Ms. Park’s fashion style during her overseas trip appears to overshadow substance she wants to secure with summit diplomacy.

  • nqk123

    I like the vietnamese ao dai. look good on them

  • chucky3176

    My only wish is I wish she would have negotiated more with Vietnam to help fleeing North Korean defectors who are showing up in Vietnam, in an attempt to defect to South Korea.

    Currently any North Koreans captured in Vietnam are sent back to China where they face deportation back to North Korea. Since these defectors are trying to escape to South Korea, North Korea sees that as a crime number one against the state so the punishment is much harsher than those who are caught simply trying to escape to China. I think President Park should have negotiated with Vietnam to not deport the North Koreans, and guarantee a safe route in Vietnam, then onto South Korea.

    But why do I think this topic probably didn’t even come up?

  • Richard Guero

    People don’t realize that a lot of those 300,000 Korean soldiers committed some of the most inhumane human-rights violations during that war.

    • Brett

      Actually, they do. It is pretty well-known, and (surprisingly) accepted as a dark part of Korea’s role in the Vietnamese war.

  • commander

    A Sept. 19th New York Times article, dealing with the American legacy of forgotten children American soldiers fathered with Veitnamese women they met during the Vietnam War, reminds me of how children born between Korean soldiers and Vietnames women are living.

    President Park’s state visit was trumpeted by local press here as a step forward in thawing Seoul’s bilateral relations with Hanoi when Vietnam President refered to Seoul as a “country-in-law.”

    That should not mask the lingering legacy on Seoul’s part: abandoned children there, many of whom are reportedly struggling economically, vulnerable to abuses, or prone to crimes.

    It would have been better for President Park to promise economic aid in official development assistance to Hanoi as part of taking on her father’s military legacy, thus helping pulling mixed blood children from abject poverty.

    Those children are living with permanent scars from the idea of being abandoned, and with unquenchable thirst for finding their roots.

    The real rapprochement between Seoul and Hanoi will start when rhetorical words during summit talks give way to grass root reconciliation efforts, for example, to heal emotionally wounded children.

    Korean fathers need to know how their children lead a life in what they risked their lives to fight the war decades ago.

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