Economics of Dating in South Korea: Netizens Tell Us How

While the cynics among us might argue that when it comes to love, we all pay, when it comes down to cold hard cash at the end of a date, who should cough up?

A recent article in Asia Economics has had netizens responding in their droves [most commented of the week on Nate] over the the economics of Korean dating, also known as “sogeting,” where people are introduced by a mutual friend and then go on several blind dates, usually to find a marriage partner.
The article, first published on May 22, revealed the results of a survey carried out by Daks Club, a ‘VIP marriage information company,’ in which 412 single men and women were asked a series of questions, the first of which was:

On the first meeting, who should pay for the date?

The results of the survey were then split according to gender. The key finding, according to the article, was that seven out of ten men said that while they would pay for the meal, it would be good if the woman paid for something like coffee afterwards.

But that was not all the survey uncovered. Although 68% of male respondents agreed that the man would pay for the meal and the woman should pay for coffee, more than half of the women questioned – 51.4% — said that they thought the man ought to pay for everything, while 33.9% agreed that a woman should at least fork out for a hot drink. If netizen interpretations of the world of Korean blind dating are anything to go by, a woman trying to snare an unsuspecting gentleman really ought to think about treating him to something a bit stronger.

That should loosen him up...

But most controversial of all was that not a single person replied that the woman should pay for everything. The survey also asked participants:

Who should pay after you’ve dated a few times?

47.4% of men responded as they had to the previous question, that the man should pay for the meal and the woman for the coffee or tea, and 65.1% of women agreed, indicating that the better women know their partner, the more likely they are to pay out.

Finally, the male participants in the survey were asked what they would think if a woman offered to ‘go Dutch’ on the first date. Three out of four men were not averse to the idea and demonstrated support for this. On the other hand, 8.2% responded that the woman might be misunderstood:

It would seem like she was ignoring me and it would hurt my pride.

Cheon Su-hyang, a marriage consultant at Daks Club explained:

Going Dutch is not something that is a grand gesture of affection or care on the part of a person; if you have some concern for your partner, it is something that you can cope with more effectively.

Netizens clearly have very strong feelings about this seemingly innocuous article, with issues of gender equality, in particular the supposedly privileged position of Korean women, coming to the fore. But what do you think? Are Korean women being too demanding, or is it simply the consequence of a well-established patriarchal culture? Should Korean couples split the bill, or simply split up?

From Nate:

강대한:

The reasons women are in the wrong:
1. They go to a nightclub [different from the Western sense of the word. A nightclub is where men share drinks and invite girls to their table, often resulting in a hefty bill] without a single penny, and if they go to a booked table [and get introduced to men] they try to make an impression…if they go to a private room, it’s like they got the room themselves, they cross their legs, ask for a cigarette.. Like they’re princesses. Whatever.
2. They buy brand-name bags twelve months of the year…but they ride the bus or the subway.
3. They go to clubs in Hongdae [one of Seoul’s nightlife areas], and though they’re all grinding up on guys they reckon they only go to the club to dance.
4. They go to import stores and spend 200,000 to 300,000 won on clothes, and they’re all shit arrogant but they’re always calculating what man has on his feet or what clothes he was wearing.
5. Though they get about 1,500,000 won per month for general office work, they look at what a man makes in a year.
6. If men flirt with them they’re happy, but they’re not flirting…they only flit from one man to the next.
7. Even though they only drink water, they say that they’re getting fat. If you see what they shove down their throats, meat hamburgers and other stuff etc.. They won’t pay out themselves.
8. They go for coffee that costs about 5,500 won that they don’t even know the name of.
9. If they think a man has talent and money, they open their legs in a flash.
10. If they manage to pick up a guy, they marry him.
11. Before the wedding, the man seems good to them, but after the wedding they get fed up so they claim alimony and begin divorce proceedings.
12. After getting divorced they re-marry. They try to live once more with this man…but it seems like they can’t live the life they want. So they get divorced again.

김기곤:

The inconvenient truth that in Korea 51.4% are ‘beanpaste girls‘.

오석진:

Woman: Look, oppa [what girls call their boyfriend, who is older in age]….You know that I’m such a brainless woman that I pay 3:7, right?……..These brainless women are everywhere now, I guess>

안병훈:

It’s not to do with bad-mouthing people. This is a phenomenon created by men who are a bit dim. If they don’t pay out in front of women they have an inferiority complex that they appear as though they have no talent. And they have dirty minds, like today they want to try out this woman. This is why they’ve ended up with these consequences.

권가은:

68% of male respondents say that ‘men should bear the cost of meals and it’s appropriate for women to share in paying for something like the cost of tea.’ 51.4% of female respondents – more than half — said it’s appropriate to pay for everything. I’m also a woman, but wow….Are about 51.4% of women really brainless? What’s so important about being a woman? Even if they can’t pay out a lot, should they have to pay for something like coffee, at least? The idea that men should unconditionally pay out – where does that come from, I wonder? Seems like these days men really have it tough.

이혜진:

The reasons men are in the wrong:

1.They go to a nightclub and waste money to buy expensive Western liquers so that they can try to sleep with a woman once.
2. If they go to a club in Hongdae they dance and grind with girls but the only thing they think of is getting laid.
3. If a woman only even slightly glances at them, then they’re happy, even if she doesn’t mean it. The woman was only looking.
4. Though men waste money paying for PC bang, booze and fags, the fact that women go for coffee, they say is indulgent and they call her a doenjangnyo.
5. If there is only a hot girl, they’ll waste money on presents and stuff, but if she doesn’t put out they talk shit about her.
6. Even when the time comes to get married they only look for a young beautiful woman, and so they end up on the shelf.
7. After they’re married and they see the woman without make-up or looking rough they think it’s perfectly natural to cheat on them. Right, but if the woman then goes out and cheats, he can’t forgive her.
8. If a woman sleeps around she is a crazy slut or a user, but if a man sleeps around it’s thought of as being a natural sexual appetite.
9.They think it’s crazy and brainless that a woman might like tall men, but that it’s reasonable that they like women with big breasts. And so on and so on. That’s enough. If we calculate things one by one like this, then it’s all pretty baseless. Just as not every man conforms to this, not every woman is rubbish either.

김재진:

51.4% have communicable disease.

김영성:

The girl from Nate who left the comment via mobile ‘I’m not like that???????’ Where the hell do I have to go to meet a Nate girl?

김희성:

The comment left via mobile was funny..the fact that women are always shouting about gender equality isn’t right..They’re always pretending to know, shouting about gender equality, when in reality they act like they’re disadvantaged.ke

안병훈:

Women of Korea, there is nothing free in this world. The meaning behind why men pay for everything is because of the strong desire to eat you! The most frightening thing in this world is compensation mentality. Mark my words!

방지애:

Strange… If I go sogeting [blind-dating] then it’s not that the man buys the meal and I pay for the tea..Just that if the man pays the first time, I’ll pay at the place we go the second time…First we go for tea, and then if the second time we go for a meal, or go drinking there are times when I end up paying much more……..Really…What sin is it to be born a man? Honestly, using up money, creating the atmosphere….Are only women princesses? tut tut

장하영:

Results of the survey: Approximately….51.6% are ‘beanpaste girls‘; 21.6% of men are pushovers. Korean men = Eldest son+ pushover+ a walking ATM machine. Korean women= plastic surgery+prostitute+beanpaste.

이윤혜:

Doesn’t seem like the problem is how many times you meet. Even though I’m a woman, I was really surprised at the 51%. The term “going dutch” — really we need to have some sense about that. Since there are clearly men who feel that their pride is damaged should a woman pay, if it’s alright for the man to buy the meal and the woman to pay for the coffee, ‘then if they just say ‘Since you bought us a delicious meal, I really want to buy us some coffee, then what man could refuse? Honestly, we earn the same money, so why should men bear the cost? Are men just idiots who pay out? I really hate that kind of woman -ㅅ- What do they want, telling men –who have absolutely no clue– that they want this present etc. They do that, and then if they get the lot, then actually after two years of going out I have seen girls that will only buy them a pair of jeans…….they say buy me an MCM bag, buy me a wallet, buy me shoes…ultimately after they have received these things if you work in a factory they ain’t going to marry you…….Men…women…be careful. Really, truly ^^ ke ke ke ke ke ke

빈성민:

Dating = you know what to do, please pay. Going out for the first time = Please go Dutch. Asking for a date = the one who asks, pays. Ps Do this and it’s fine.

김영일:

I’m loaded. Spread ’em, ladies.

이세창:

Women who look at money when they go out with men can’t say anything if later on the men cheat on them….Why? As time passes, the man’s wealth will increase, but as time passes the woman’s appearance will depreciate…that is to say…when she’s young, the beauty of a woman’s appearance is the same as the man’s capability, but…if, as time passes, the difference in value between the two appears, then from the man’s position he is at a loss…I mean…in order for a capable man to preserve the difference, the women definitely can’t say anything about his cheating..

홍성우:

These Korean bitches shouldn’t be shouting about sexual equality. In Korea women’s rights have greatly increased, so on the contrary it’s now a country that is unfair to men. Politics? Under proportional representation, each political party allots a number of specialist positions to women. And when the supreme council votes, then they must select at least one female candidate without question. Even if the women don’t rank, I mean, there is automatic nomination. Military? A country like Israel, which also has security fears has a system that drafts both men and women into the army, but in Korea women don’t get conscripted, and women are respected, but they let them enter the military under the voluntary conscription system as non-commissioned officers. Education? Look at women in Islamic countries or other less developed countries. Even now, far from women not being allowed to enter university or go on to high school just because they are daughters, in Korea anyone who couldn’t go to university because she was someone’s daughter? Economic activities? Look at North Korea! There, whether you’re a man or a woman you all have to earn money, but in South Korea, Women earn husbands. Who talks shit about someone who is a full-time housewife who lives on the money her husband gives her? Work life? Women are certainly not made to do any work that is tough on their bodies, and we accept that women are the weaker sex, so they often do overtime. Even when they have their period, we give them the utmost consideration. Restrictions on conduct? Look at Islamic countries! The woman has to go around all covered up in cloth, she can’t wear jeans, it would be unimaginable for her to wear a bikini in summer; she can’t drive around. In Korea, do they tell women that they can’t wear jeans or drive? Do you get punished with lashes if you wear a bikini at a beach resort? Date? It’s perfectly correct for the man to pay on the first date, and it’s Korean culture that this is acceptable. Married life? In the conditions for marriage, the man’s annual income has to be higher, and it’s the reality that the man has to prepare a home for his wife. Owning a vehicle? It’s recognised that a man should have a car, and no one would question why a woman didn’t have a car. Though you live in such a good country like this one, isn’t it ke ke ke ke ke ke to say that men and women aren’t equal? In a country that is so good to live in, what makes you so discontent – why are you shouting about gender equality?

오석진:

On the one hand, more than half of the female respondents (51.4%) answered that it was appropriate for the man to bear the cost of everything, but there was not one opinion that stated that the women should pay for everything……Still, do women on the internet often go Dutch? If you go outside, this kind of doenjang are scattered all around?? If they can’t go Dutch, then don’t be all crying out for equality and stuff, or about sexual discrimination. Seems a bit sick.

임상훈:

It’s someone you’re meeting for the first time. Buy them a meal, buy them coffee. It’s no big deal…

안진혜:

Please don’t go out with some loser who’s going to spend your money ke ke ke ke ke ke

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  • ok beth you must let go of this now – I am so sorry I was not able to lavish you with London’s finest dining (ok, Savoy was a bit underwhelming but still! you DID half-finish that bottle of Chateau Rothschild – or was it just to rinse out the aftertaste…) but writing a whole article about it on kBANG is just unacceptable!

    For the sake of our respective emotional and financial well-being we must end this now. Good bye, my fare Beth!

    • Beth

      OMG Justin. This is so like you. Airing our dirty laundry in public. I only half-finished that bottle of Chateau Rothschild because I was already hammered before the date. Anyway, you were paying.

      Also, please don’t leave me.

      • Justin_C

        Beth,
        surely our mutually destructive attraction to each other must be tempered by something other than irrational appetite for ‘downward social mobility,’ and gossip coverage on Evening Standard (TM). Whilst we ought not let our base feelings prevail, your pathetic plea has somewhat softened my resolve.

        On that note, I will let your embedded poll make the decision~

  • Bam Wam

    I’m pretty sure 90% of Netizens have never been on a date, let alone left their parents house, and the other 10% are dating with their online avatars in some random MMORPG.

  • Paul M

    I can understand why most women would baulk at the idea of paying for drinks after the meal considering two coffees at any brand of chain coffee shop would probably cost more than the meal.

    • Brett Sanbon

      Where are you eating Paul??

      • Paul M

        I eat at all the classy places such as Ho-Gi Shik Dang and Dragon Jja-Jang Myeong.

        • Brett Sanbon

          Hah. Well Id expect if someone went sogetting for jjajang, there would be no one to drink coffee with by the end of the meal… ;) Good strategy if you arent interested though.

          Anyways I was just teasing. Youre right, coffee is too damn expensive now. The only coffee shops with somewhat normal prices are the ones in office buildings…. about 40-60% less on average. I almost shit a brick the first time I walked into a Tom N Toms and saw toast for ₩6,800. They just pour a little sugar on some bread and charge 100 times more than cost.

  • Brett Sanbon

    I think the whole concept of sogetting is flawed. Most guys are too scared to go ahead and make the first move at a coffee shop, bookstore, or 술집, and therefore rely on sogetting to meet a nice girl.

    I think that the flawed part of sogetting is that people assume it can only end in a second date, or never see or talk to each other again… ever. There is no middle ground and that means a lot of expectations.

    Im kinda old fashioned. I will say thay if the guy is looking to meet a girl to start a relationship, he should pay. The problem for the boys is that they are always looking to start a relationship and that becomes an expensive lifestyle.

    • Ami

      But many of these men aren’t after relationships they’re after the between of a woman’s legs. So they use money,gifts and status to try and that is an expensive habit.

      And if you are looking for a life partner, basing a relationship off of gifts and status isn’t a very efficient or intelligent way to go about it. Someone might love the gifts more than you!

      • Justin_C

        actually Ami, I must add that sex is usually not immediately on the line, as you put it. Because it is arranged by a party that knows both sides, usually they are very careful in terms of what they say, how they act, etc., because that information will be all relayed. It is a very formal encounter, often highly ritualised.

        Sogetting is often arranged for those deemed ready for ‘long-term’ relationship.

        As Beth would put it during our numerous wine-dine outings, ‘you are not SO-GETTING any (presumably referring to her jokes).’

        • Beth

          I think we all know that you never got my jokes. But I’m not saying that is all that you didn’t get.
          But Justin is right — the idea of sogetting is pretty old-fashioned in the sense that it’s what you do when you’re looking for someone to marry. This might be another reason why demonstrating security in the form of wealth has become so central to it — men want to show women that they can “provide” for them — ie active masculine. And women want to demonstrate they can be “provided for” — ie passive feminine. In reality, of course, this is just pandering to gender stereotypes that make all our lives more unbearable.

          • James

            “pandering to gender stereotypes”.

            PANDA STEREOTYPES!

            Time to sleep.

          • Beth

            Definitely sleepy time, comrade.

  • Yohan

    If I went on a date with a girl who didn’t offer to pay, there would be no second date. I think modern men should look for modern women who have an equal mindset. I don’t wanna date a woman living in the 1950’s seeing herself as the “weaker sex” in need of protection and support from a man.

    • mouse

      I’m not a “weak” or “traditional” woman, but on the first date, if the guy has asked the woman out he should pay. If they keep dating, of course she should offer to pay and pay for some dates, but the first date is just off limits to me. If a man didn’t pay for my first date, I wouldn’t meet him again either.

      • Yohan

        Good thing we never went on a date then ;) I just think these ideas are outdated and these days men and women are equally working and making their own money so why should a man pay more than the woman? To me it’s an expression of past patriarchal society that I hope we can leave behind us. If we want men and women to be equal we have to live it, or it won’t happen.

  • Good lord. Please tell me you’re cherry picking the most ridiculous comments here.

    • Beth

      It’s a bit scary, Roboseyo, but these were generally the most popular comments made on the article — and this article was the most commented-on article of the day. So most of these comments were extremely popular, were “liked” hundreds of times, and were taken as representative of reader’s opinions by the site itself (if an article is particularly popular, the site creates a separate comment section of the “best” comments.)

    • mouse

      The one about cheating pissed me off. Depreciation? Why are people valuing partners in terms of beauty and money? It’s rather sickening that people get married because a woman is pretty and a man has money. No wonder divorce happens.

      • dim mak

        Welcome to HUMAN SOCIETY

  • glenn

    Some Korean women spend much of their money on beauty products, clothes and plastic surgeries to look good. I wonder if this trend reflects the attitudes of Korean men towards women.

    In terms of who gets to pay during a date, anyone should pay for the whole meal or coffee afterwards if it’s the first time you go out, specially if you are a man. But on the succeeding dates or outings, it won’t hurt if the women treats or partially pay as well.

    But i remember one female Korean friend of mine that if she doesn’t enjoy the date, she would ask the guy to pay for everything or she would voluntarily pay for her share.

  • Chris

    Korean man:
    Tacky fake brand nightlife outfit – $200
    Booking club table – $300
    Alcohol – $750
    Moral outrage because woman only puts out on first date for free with hipster foreign English teachers or troglodyte U.S. military because it’s practically revenge for decades of economic repression enacted by a patriarch society where women are essentially forced into low-paying pink collar jobs or prostitution/borderline prostitution just to make it by on their own, as evidenced by the fact that you can see an anma or “lounge” almost literally on every other street block in almost every city = Priceless

    Every society has its issues, but Korean men should meditate a bit on why their women have become so cold.

    • mouse

      Ha! If you think Korean women date US guys for revenge you are sorely mistaken.

      Korean women have white fever just as much as white men have yellow fever. You are being objectified just the same.

      Most Korean people don’t enter into a serious relationship with foreigners even if they are boyfriend-girlfriend it’s just a temporary thing before they look for someone else who has the specs to marry. Those that are serious are rare.

      • Chris

        Yes, clearly, I think they date white man solely for revenge.

        Or maybe it was a commentary on how Korean men should stop treating women like materials if they want women to stop being materialistic.

        Way to miss the point.

        • Chris

          Yes, clearly, I think they date white man solely for revenge,********* hence the word “practically’ before revenge.

        • mouse

          Yeah, I did miss your point. I agree with that though. I think it goes both ways in Korea.

    • Mich’insaeki

      Hmm, actually I found that most foreigner-groupie girls slept around with foreigners for the same reason anyone sleeps with anyone. Because they want to try something. That’s not exactly something they can get away with within their own social group. This is what most guys just don’t get. Foreigners are “off the books.” Foreigners don’t count. They mostly don’t speak the language, aren’t part of any established hierarchy related to school, hakwon, church, work, college, friends… wham-bam-thank-you-man is just that. It’s a freebie. Koreans guys are “allowed” to whore monger and run rampant, it’s practically expected of them. Girls don’t have that outlet in Korea. Geeky foreign nerds are kind of the get-out-of-jail free card for Korean girls who figure that out. Korean guys have no one but themselves to blame for their girls’ behavior. That foreign “animal attraction” crap is all bs.

      Met plenty of Kgirls from all walks of life who just wanted to party hard and some months-years later I’d see/hear they had settled down and become the very perfect lil Misses Kim. All proper n shit. Have a hymen reconstruction and play-act on honeymoon. Mr. Kim happy. Misses Kim Happy. Me very happy. Everyone happy.

  • dim mak

    I thought going dutch meant something else…

  • mouse

    Women who expect a man to pay for every date are the same as men who expect women to open their legs on every date.

    Not cool.

    I can understand wanting a guy to pay at the beginning. And I think men don’t mind and enjoy taking a girl out. I think that’s sweet. But if a guy drops 40 dollars on dinner, that’s a lot of money when it keeps adding up. It’s not going to kill your budget to buy a $10 dollar coffee on someone you are interested enough in to want to spend more time with. I think it’s silly. I don’t like paying Dutch because it looks bad to me, but I don’t mind paying for both of us at a movie or for coffee or something.

    I just don’t understand why it’s so hard? When you like a guy don’t you want to do things for him?

    • Umm

      I don’t understand your comment.
      Why is it okay to want a guy to pay at the beginning? What is it about having a penis that makes it necessary to pay for others?
      It’s sweet for a guy to pay $40 for dinner and you to pay $10 for coffee? And it’s going Dutch that looks bad.. I’d say it’s being super stingy that looks bad. If you can’t afford to split a $40 meal, then eat somewhere cheaper. It’s the time together not the cost of the date that’s important, right?
      I always offer and try to split.. I actually find it quit patronising and uncomfortable when a guy pays despite me clearly wanting to split. I’d pay for everything if I wanted to go out and my boyfriend was broke.. I’d do the same thing for a friend and they would for me too.

      • mouse

        It’s because the dude is the one who asked me out. Why should I pay for him?

        I was using the example provided within the article. $40 a meal isn’t that much anyway. It has nothing to do with being unable to afford it. If a guy asked me for my time by dating me he should pay at first.

        If we go steady I have no problem dropping money for the whole dinner. That’s no big deal to me.

        It’s fine if that’s how you feel. I feel differently. :)

        • An anonymous boy…

          I think that is pretty selfish, I mean it’s my understanding men do the most amount of “asking out” do to the way male/female dynamics works around the world.

          If he wants to split with you, he is treating you as his equal.

          Referring to some comment you made above: It is pretty narrow sighted to be like oh…no second date just because you didn’t pay. I mean he could be a great person who just didn’t feel like paying money that day… Who knows.. Doesn’t really say much about him…

          • mouse

            The thing is a first date is about showing your interest in someone right? To me as a woman, if a guy asks me out but then doesn’t try to put his best foot forward, it shows me that he doesn’t really care all that much.

          • He might’ve asked you out, but you’re the one who said “yes”, which makes you just as responsible for the date. Don’t say yes if you’re not interested. Dates are not about free meals, they’re about human connection.
            You talk about putting his best foot forward, but clearly you are unwilling to do the same. You want to be treated like a princess, but unless you’re willing to also treat him like a prince, you’re just not worth the time or the effort.

            Your mere presence is not a gift. You have to put forth effort too. Life isn’t a free ride, no matter how entitled you feel to have it be.

          • doubletrouble

            I think it’s more like (to me) that she’s saying that if the guy asks for the first date, he should pay. if the girl asks the guy on the first date, she should pay. and then going with the example of coffee the other should pay for that afterwards.

          • An anonymous boy…

            Yeah, but he could just be in a bad mood from a terrible day and it reflects in his attitude.

            Also I could turn around what you say and be like from his perspective you haven’t put your best foot forward, right? I think it is best to be open minded about the whole thing…when choosing someone…but I guess it doesn’t matter since divorce rates are so high. People have nearly a 50/50 chance at staying together…

          • mouse

            I’ve been very open minded in the past, but I don’t think that’s so great. I think too as you date more people you figure out what works and what doesn’t. I reject a lot of dates not based on personality or looks or anything, but just on the actions of a guy. I think women have to protect themselves from a lot of assholes out there in order to save themselves for the good ones! :)

        • Umm

          He asks you out because he’s interested in you, you say yes because you’re interested too. By saying yes, you’ve shown just as much interest as him and should pay your part. I mean, it’s not like he’s forcing you to dine with him.
          Also, if it’s blind dating, then a friend has arranged it on behalf of you AND the guy. So he’s not really asking you out at all, it’s through mutual interest in dating that you’ve ended up in the situation. So, considering dating is ALWAYS a mutual affair, regardless of who does the asking out, doesn’t it make sense the responsibilities should be split?

          “If a guy asked me for my time by dating me he should pay at first.”
          So guys have to pay for your time? That’s pretty self-important. How much do you get paid for spending your preciously scarce time posting on Koreabang? I understand though, I personally hate it when people like my friends, family and boyfriend want to spend my time without paying for it.

          If I were a guy, I definitely wouldn’t want to go steady with a girl who wasn’t willing to invest in our relationship from an early stage.. Being unwilling to split or pay from the beginning shows that you’re not fully interested in the relationship or willing to put effort in, pretty much just leaving it up to the guy to take care of everything.

          • mouse

            If a man cares so much about his money that he wouldn’t spend money on dinner for me on a first date, no I wouldn’t date him. That has nothing to do with me being stingy. I spend plenty of money on my boyfriends before and I’ve spent hundreds (thousands if you add it up) on presents and such and I do pay for dates as well. I’m not stingy with money at all in anyway, so I don’t expect my boyfriend to be either.

            I don’t care about how much money a guy has. If he can only afford to take me to a cheap restaurant or something, I don’t care, but the effort counts. Just sharing chicken and beer with my ex who was very poor was more romantic than going to a fancy restaurant with another one of my exes to me anyway.

        • Umm

          So you’re saying it’s stingy for him to not be willing to pay for the first date but it’s not stingy for you to not put in for yourself for the first date? I don’t see how a guy treating a woman as an equal and expecting her pay her part is in any way stingy or wrong. If you don’t care about his money, why do you want him to pay? It’s actually sexist against men. What would you do if after moving in together he said “You should do the majority of the cleaning up because you’re a woman and that’s your traditional gender role. If you don’t do it, it shows that you’re too precious and not willing to get your hands dirty for me”?
          You’ve said that him paying for the first date shows his interest and is putting in effort.. But it’s not like it actually takes any effort at all to pay for a meal. Last time I checked paying involves:
          1. Pulling out your wallet
          2. Paying
          Showing interest involves conversation and caring about your opinion. But according to you, him paying for the first date is more important? His stunning personality and charms aren’t worth a second date if he doesn’t pay? And what effort is it that you’re putting in? You were born a girl, congrats, that means you don’t have to “prove your interest” or “put in effort”?
          Seems that feminism these days isn’t about gender equality but rather about female superiority.
          Must be nice being a princess!

          • Beth

            Being a princess is fantastic.

            I agree, Umm, paying for the first date is pretty meaningless. I’m not sure, though that we should equate feminism/lack of gender equality with some female supremacy conspiracy. I think that actually you make a really good point when you say that if women expect men to pay for everything then the man could by the same logic turn around and say “get in the kitchen and make me some pie.” In an ideal world, sexual difference would be purely biological, but you can’t ignore cultural influences — some men don’t like to be seen as not being able to pay, and in a world where women are judged on appearance, many want to be paid for, despite the horrible connotations this can bring. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve heard male acquaintances complain about being emasculated when women pay for things, even though clearly, some of us make excellent sugar daddies.

          • mouse

            You are reading way too much into this. It’s ONE first date, not a relationship, buddy. I already said what I felt. If you want to call me a “princess” because you have nothing better to say than repeat what you’ve said in the 10 last posts and say I’m being “superior”, go ahead.

            You can act like the world is ending because a girl wants a guy to pay on the first date, I won’t stop you. Have fun! I can promise you there are millions of girls out there more “princessy” than me. Good luck with that.

          • Umm

            Beth: Admittedly it is a bit of a stretch, but women lash out against old traditions that limit their rights and abilities but openly embrace other old traditions (that are just as sexist) that give them an unwarranted advantage. Not that it’s directly related to the article but it also bugs me when feminist organisations whine about pay disparity (which is definitely something worth whining about) but then don’t think it’d be fair if they had to join the military. Or just little things like insisting on carrying a needlessly heavy bag but wanting your boyfriend to carry it for you. Wearing high heels, even though you know it’s harder to balance and that they’ll make your feet sore, but still expecting your boyfriend to give you his seat on the train.
            Any guy who thinks it’s emasculating that a women is successful, not even necessarily more successful than them, has some issues that need to be sorted. Although, it could very well just be in the face of society that they feel that way. I have absolutely nothing to backup my claims except for the experiences of some of my friends but.. In China Korean men have a reputation for being boy toys. The Korean wave hit China hard and a lot of girls want a Korean boyfriend, so often enough they end up housing, feeding and buying expensive presents for these pet leeches. Maybe it’s only emasculating if someone Korean sees? As having money isn’t the sole right of men, it’s still definitely an issue that men would find it emasculating that a woman would want pay for herself, regardless of what country they’re in.

            Mouse: Well, it is the whole relationship actually. You’ve said if a man doesn’t pay for the first date that some how equates to how much he values your company and you wouldn’t be willing to see him again if he didn’t cough up. A potential relationship ruined based solely on him not paying for you.
            I still don’t understand what you “feel” because you change your reasoning each time. Reasoning was as follows: it’s sweet for a guy to pay, he’s the one who asked you out and he cares too much about money if he doesn’t pay/stingy. Yet none of these reasons seem to apply to you just because you’re a girl. In the end it seems the real reason is following backward traditions.
            I already have called you a princess, so I feel no need to go ahead and do it again.
            I didn’t really repeat myself, since my comments were all in response to your comments.. Unless you consider sticking to my guns while bringing up different points to be repeating myself.
            Cool, so because there are girls who are more princessy than you, it’s okay for you to be. By that logic, I’m going to kick a cat! After all, there are people out there who participate in murder, cannibalism and postmortem rape all in one afternoon. Kicking a cat is barely evil in comparison!
            While I’m having fun with my lesser cat kicking evils, may I suggest you get back in the kitchen, do some ironing or go out for a date and enjoy being valued purely for your looks?

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  • Here’s a point to ponder – if women think that there should be no gender
    equality for the payment of things, then why should there be gender
    equality when it comes to being paid FOR things?

    It only makes
    sense that if the man is expected to pay for the woman, then the man
    should also be paid more for his services by his employer so that in the
    end it’s equal. The difference in this case being that men should get
    paid more in currency while women make up the difference by being paid
    for by the things they want that are paid for by men.

    I think I just solved the problem of pay equity. No need for further legislation.

    • sebbb

      Exactly. If the men are expected to pay for the women in every regard, that means their expenses are far higher than women and so should get paid much more. The best way to do it is that the man’s salary and the woman’s salary goes into the same joint account and then they spend the money together.

      Even if his salary is higher than hers, the money is all in the same pot and they spend it together. make decisions together and be happy together.

    • catatonianervosa

      It’s funny because that is EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON and there is no gender equality in wages ANYWAY.

      Actually no, that’s not funny at all. South Korean women get paid an average 63% of what men do, according to the research, and it’s not really that much better anywhere else either. This right here? These numbers? This all came about because men on average have always had much more disposable income than women.

      • Sillian

        Some people may interpret the wage gap in the wrong way. It doesn’t mean Korean women get only 63% of what Korean men do for the same job with the same education, experience and qualifications, which is not blatantly possible due to law. It is a simple comparison between average wages for all professions combined. For example, many big Korean companies with high paying jobs prefer to hire people with engineering background, but female students are such minorities in engineering schools. Most high risk high paying jobs are also taken by men.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58arQIr882w

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